ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
I am not saying that there is a problem with Reformed Seminaries, I am just giving people rational potential targets to place blame on.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
How the heck did this thread become about music?!
But I do get tired of certain agitators on these boards (and their enablers) suggesting that we just need to get out more, or that "white people just don't understand". As if we some of us had never been in situations where we were the minority.
Thank you for using the word "agitator", Brother Joshua. Because agitation is exactly what it is. And it's not new. The more things change the more they stay the same.
I for one refuse to succumb to the politics of guilt and pity (make Whitey feel guilty so you can control him). I'm not swallowing the Kool-Aid.
I admit that I haven't read every word of every post in this thread, but I'm not seeing any of this supposed guilt-baiting.
Unless I'm the one doing it, of course. lol
I don't disagree with that.Then we need to separate out which is which, fix what needs to be fixed, call a spade what needs to be called a spade etc. and not hide behind music/worship styles.
Okay so we have some sort of common ground.
Actually you did not even attempt to address my objection. My objection is that some things blamed on race are actually just knowledge and understanding. It is not as if there is something inherent to the race.
Not to be mean but it seems like the same sort of reasoning used by Obama to put forth various racial or gender people to the Supreme Court. There is nothing inherent to women/men/black/white/latino etc. that make them able to rule on various cases better. Either one knows the facts of the case and how the law applies to this or one does not.
You can see it in international mission fields, but you can't see it cross culturally in the US?To think that one needs to rely solely on white western missionaries to lead seems to imply that the indigenous people are somehow inherently incapable of leading. That view is problematic on a great deal of levels.
Um, you do not see the difference in situations? The problem is not raising up people from our congregations to receive calls to the ministry or related functions. From what I understand our seminaries seem to be quite full and producing a good number of ministerial candidates. The issue as far as black ministers is the Ones and twosies problem. Unless you think it is the responsibility of every black male in the PCA to go to seminary and become pastors, there are going to be few actual and potential black ministers in the PCA.
The only reason this would be a problem is if the people being produced are being trained to minister only to the standard middle class white congregation. But if that is the case, then sending more black males to seminary is just going to add to the number of people with the ability to minister to the standard middle class white congregation.
CT
PCA-MNA Newsletter said:Dear Friend
When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6
There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.
Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?
I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.
What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.
If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.
In His Service,
Plummer
Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator
[/QUOTE]PCA-MNA Newsletter said:Dear Friend
When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6
There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.
Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?
I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.
What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.
If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.
In His Service,
Plummer
Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator
Perhaps this is really a question for a separate thread, but why do people make such a big issue out of their own comfort? The only church I ever felt comfortable in as a first-time visitor was a wealthy Mexican Presbyterian church where no one spoke to me except for the pastor and a ruling elder at the door as I went out (and I could have avoided them if I wanted to, but I really wanted to talk to the pastor), and I was with two friends anyway. But my comfort (in the one church) or discomfort (in all the other churches) didn't stop me from recognizing Biblical preaching, or its lack, and reverent worship, or its lack.
Perhaps this is really a question for a separate thread, but why do people make such a big issue out of their own comfort? The only church I ever felt comfortable in as a first-time visitor was a wealthy Mexican Presbyterian church where no one spoke to me except for the pastor and a ruling elder at the door as I went out (and I could have avoided them if I wanted to, but I really wanted to talk to the pastor), and I was with two friends anyway. But my comfort (in the one church) or discomfort (in all the other churches) didn't stop me from recognizing Biblical preaching, or its lack, and reverent worship, or its lack.
That is also where I began to realize that it was more from my pastor's example that the worship style is not my hangup. He is not a fan of the hymns however you would never know it. He sings them with such joy and reverence and you can see he feels every word.
That is also where I began to realize that it was more from my pastor's example that the worship style is not my hangup. He is not a fan of the hymns however you would never know it. He sings them with such joy and reverence and you can see he feels every word.
I don't want to get into the midst of this thread, but this excellent comment needs to be highlighted. We must always remember - first as ministers, also as leaders, and also as members, that we are called to not only experience, but also SHOW the joy and excitement of corporate worship. It is not enough to theologically think about the importance of worship and "it's all about God, not my needs," we must live that theology.
It does no good to be correct in our thoughts while those around us - especially visitors - see us bored, yawning, scowling at song choice, distracted, etc.
May we all have the attitude of the pastor above.
Pergamum,
Your questions on the stats are probably google'able. I know there are 35-37 African American pastors in the PCA. One I just found out from his blog is now an Anglican. I'd be interested in speaking with him about his decision.
The Black missionary issue from my experience in Black churches is complicatedly simple or simply complicated. The initial reaction that I get is "Why would I want to go over there with all that poverty, heat, and killing? We have the same thing right here and I don't have to give up my A/C!" The question my colleagues retort with is, "Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?" This is not my sentiment but the one I hear.
That is why I was encouraged when I saw the PCA has a "Missions to North America." It is understood that we have to address our people here as if we were missionaries. I met two missionaries who are from Africa, not sure which country, and they laughed when I asked them if they were here to go to seminary and return. They told me that they had gone to university in Africa and were sent to the US as missionaries! Seems as though they think we need Jesus just as much as we think they do. They were a funny pair. They were joking about having a petition signed asking that the US not send anymore missionaries because the Gospel they are proclaiming isn't the one they read about in the Bible....plus they have enough people who can dig a ditch.
"Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?"
Interesting! Do you think that this is a common sentiment among black churches?
Now you know I cannot comment on Black churches. It's not like the Black church is some monolithic consortium. In my experience though not the Christian ones but the ones which preach a social gospel or liberational gospel perhaps. I have met 10 or so of the ~35 African American PCA pastors and none share this sentiment. It seems to me that the ones I know from seminary who do share this sentiment have an axe to grind. I know one professor who says this regularly however he has never pastored a church and unfortunately has suffered incredibly at the hands of racists. This poor man's wounds are deep and has him gripping to unforgiveness. A shame really. It's confusing to me because these other "gospels" are no gospel at all and instead of "liberating" their congregants every week it seems as though a fresh pinch of salt is added to a festering wound. It's the weirdest thing to hear at chapel about all the transgressions committed by Whites against Blacks or men against women and then told to "love them in spite of..." It's equivalent to "don't think of a polka-dot hippo...don't think of a polka-dot hippo..."
Not sure if that makes any sense but I'm tired right now.....
Pergamum,
Your questions on the stats are probably google'able. I know there are 35-37 African American pastors in the PCA. One I just found out from his blog is now an Anglican. I'd be interested in speaking with him about his decision.
The Black missionary issue from my experience in Black churches is complicatedly simple or simply complicated. The initial reaction that I get is "Why would I want to go over there with all that poverty, heat, and killing? We have the same thing right here and I don't have to give up my A/C!" The question my colleagues retort with is, "Why are WASP's so willing to fly clear across the globe to help Black people but won't lift a finger to help a Black person down the street?" This is not my sentiment but the one I hear.
That is why I was encouraged when I saw the PCA has a "Missions to North America." It is understood that we have to address our people here as if we were missionaries. I met two missionaries who are from Africa, not sure which country, and they laughed when I asked them if they were here to go to seminary and return. They told me that they had gone to university in Africa and were sent to the US as missionaries! Seems as though they think we need Jesus just as much as we think they do. They were a funny pair. They were joking about having a petition signed asking that the US not send anymore missionaries because the Gospel they are proclaiming isn't the one they read about in the Bible....plus they have enough people who can dig a ditch.
How the heck did this thread become about music?!
I think because it was being used as an example and it just slid right into a whole different topic. People focused on the example, not the point.
-----Added 5/31/2009 at 09:37:10 EST-----
But I do get tired of certain agitators on these boards (and their enablers) suggesting that we just need to get out more, or that "white people just don't understand". As if we some of us had never been in situations where we were the minority.
Thank you for using the word "agitator", Brother Joshua. Because agitation is exactly what it is. And it's not new. The more things change the more they stay the same.
I for one refuse to succumb to the politics of guilt and pity (make Whitey feel guilty so you can control him). I'm not swallowing the Kool-Aid.
This is where the misunderstanding is and the defensiveness is.
There is no "make whitey feel guilty"...it is "whitey" that is questioning "why is there a need for more black ministers, are we 'good enough' " as though others are saying they aren't. No one is saying that.
They are merely looking at ways to reach out to various communities.
ONE of those ways is to look for ministers from that same cultural understanding and background to work directly with these people. There is a reason for it. It's not because "whitey is the bane of all their troubles"...it's because they need someone that UNDERSTANDS the issues in THAT community. A church isn't JUST meeting spiritual needs...many times it's also meeting social, physical, and relational needs as well.
So please, please, please stop being defensive about it. Please TRY to understand that there are culturally relevant ISSUES that not everyone is capable of helping their flock deal with.
Please read the following in its entirety. This should help with the discussion. I believe the issue is Black leadership over worship styles.
PCA-MNA Newsletter said:Dear Friend
When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:6
There are three types of African American led churches in the PCA: traditional black churches, inner city churches, and multi-ethnic churches. The most prevalent and the fastest growing are the multi-ethnic churches. The black churches are the most difficult to plant.
Our dream has always been to plant a major resource African American church like Perimeter in Atlanta, Briarwood in Birmingham, or Redeemer in New York City. The idea was that a large church with a staff of pastors and interns would become a resource church out of which other churches would be panted, thus facilitating a movement. Unfortunately, this has not been this history of African Americna church planting in the PCA. None of our Afreican American churches have a staff of pastors and none have planted other churches. Most of them struggle to break the 100 member barrier. None have had the resource to mentor interns. Our twol larger churches hover between 200 and 250 in attendance on Sunday under one pastor. By contrast, our African American led multi-ethnic churches seem to be doing better. The largest one has over 500 in attendance with several pastors, interns, and a RUF minister. How do you explain the difference?
I recently met with a group of church planters in Chattanooga to talk about the challenges involved in planting African American churches in the PCA. We were aware of most of the challenges, such as the paucity of seminary trained pastors, funding, and presumptions about styles and forms of worship in a Presbyterian denomination. What we were not aware of and a conclusion we reached is that, putting the process in terms of human effort involved, starting a typical PCA church is more like starting a franchise business, whereas starting a black PCA church is more like starting a brand new fast food restaurant from scratch. There is a world of differences in the skill levels and gift mix required to start a franchise versus starting a new business. Given the fact that one in ten pastors is a church planter and probably one in one hundred is a scratch church planter, we concluded that the odds are working against us in starting African American churches.
What is far more viable is starting multi-ethnic churches from a racially mixed core group under African American leadership. This approach has proven successful for several of our church plants. We have found that the African American presence in these churches steadily grows over the years bringing the percentages up to almost 50%. We believe that although it may take longer, it is more likely that we will create a church planting movement that impacts the African American community by planting multi-ethnic churches than by trying to plant black churches. Although we have not given up on planting black churches, we realize that without the right ingredients of entrepreneurial leadership and financial commitment we are asking too much of our church planters. Please pray for us as we seek to reach the African American community by putting more emphasis on planting multi-ethnic churches. Pray that God will raise up African American entrepreneurial pastoral leadership interested in the PCA.
If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.
In His Service,
Plummer
Wy Plummer, MNA African American Ministries Coordinator
I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.
LadyFlynt;
I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.
Why not?
Good Grief...part of the answers to your come backs were in the portions of my post that you chose to leave out.
I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.
What are we to win or lose? What is the prize?or you dislike being on the losing side of a discussion
Good Grief...part of the answers to your come backs were in the portions of my post that you chose to leave out.
I don't know the areas of the three churches in question, but let me tell you, if they are anything like East St Louis, Venice, and Brooklyn, Illinois, you can NOT have a white pastor in there.
What part of your post containing the answers did I chose to leave out? Answer: there was not one.
There is no reason to question my integrity because you cannot express yourself properly or you dislike being on the losing side of a discussion.
CT
Frank:
Thanks to you and Rae for dragging this back to the original topic.
And on your latest paragraph:
"I guess in short the call for African American leadership in the PCA is because many Black folk do not hear the message because they are too suspicious of the messenger. These suspicious Blacks and Whites will lose their suspicions when they are able to fellowship with each other and this is facilitated by having more diversity in the pulpit. Now the catch-22 is how are we to get more diversity in the pulpit if there is no diversity in the pews and it is from the pews that we get the pulpit supply"
...I wonder if anyone here can tell us more about how wonderfully well the Jackson State RUF group was made to feel welcome and included in everything at the recent RUF conference? I only heard a very brief bit about it, so don't have details.