PCA Overture on Deaconesses

[Scott]

PCA Overture on Deaconesses

 

[sastark]

As someone who recently began attending an Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (and love it!) this is very interesting. Thanks for the head's up.

 

[sastark]

Oh, and look at that, my 1,000th post.

 

[DMcFadden]

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

 

[sastark]

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this...

 

[ModernPuritan?]

allowing a deaconess in the church that would be interesting.. they obviously could not be elders and such. but there are a few female deacons mentioned in the NT. So let them deal with things like visitation, food ministries,- things that wifes would do more naturally or something along those lines

 

[ModernPuritan?]

My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this...

its something ive never seen- what do they do specifically thats different from what the men do?..

 

[Romans922]

PCA Overture on Deaconesses

Um, What is really interesting about this is that not only has Philadelphia Presbytery overtured the PCA GA, but so has Western Canada Presbytery on the same issue. The only difference is that Philadelphia has an added clause that Western Canada does not and that is, "whose members are representative of various positions within the PCA".

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

My church (PCA) views it as a service role. Hence we have deaconesses. It will be interesting to see the GA's view on this...

its something ive never seen- what do they do specifically thats different from what the men do?..

Nothing, at least as far as I can see. Here's a description:

Diaconate - redeemer.com

 

[Davidius]

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

 

[sastark]

Congrats, Seth!

(Any Biola Betty's in your future?)

Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!

 

[TimV]

Practically speaking it wouldn't make much difference in the PCA. Churches like Keller's and several others make statements like this:

Within the class of elder are the two orders of teaching elders and ruling elders. The elders jointly have the government and spiritual oversight of the Church, including teaching. Only those elders who are specially gifted, called and trained by God to preach may serve as teaching elders. The office of deacon is not one of rule, but rather of service both to the physical and spiritual needs of the people. In accord with Scripture, these offices are open to men only.
On the question of deacons, the Presbyterian tradition has not spoken, nor does it still speak, with one voice on the question of women in diaconal ministry, or on the question of whether deacons should be spoken of as "ordained." However, at Church of the Redeemer, we affirm that women may serve in diaconal ministry, and particularly, that women are Scripturally permitted to serve as deacons. In principle, we believe that our denomination, the PCA, should change its current position delineated in the Book of Church Order, and open up the ordained office of deacon to women as well as to men. However, at present, in submission to the PCA Book of Church Order – until the PCA changes its position on this issue – we will not officially ordain women to the office of deacon at church of the Redeemer. We will, however, select, train, and commission both men and women to serve as deacons in an “un-ordained” capacity at Church of the Redeemer. (For a complete treatment of this subject, see “Diaconal Ministry at Church of the Redeemer,” by the council of elders.
Women and Ministry

and

The Diaconate, a group of men and women nominated and elected into the office by the Redeemer members, exists to express in practical ways Christ's command to all believers to love our neighbor as ourselves. We offer help to those in crisis or challenging situations by assessing their needs and working together to find solutions.

So they are saying "We can't allow women Deacons because the PCA doesn't allow it. So in the mean time, we allow women Deacons". And unless things have changed, the current head of their Diaconate is a woman, who took the place of the last leader, who was a woman.

The PCA where I still have my membership goes even further, with "unordained" Deacons that are Baptist and Arminian. The problem will probably come at the Denominational level when someone points out to these guys that all Deacons have to be ordained. The BCO doesn't allow for a third officer, so they'll eventually have to plug the loophole that so many people are climbing through.

 

[kvanlaan]

Hence we have deaconesses.

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?

 

[DMcFadden]

Sorry, what's a "Biola Betty"?

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!

Just being funny. Students at my college used to speak of students at your college as Biola Bob's and Betty's. It was quaint and anachronistic even "back in the day."

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Hence we have deaconesses.

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

 

[sastark]

I think he wants to know whether you have a girlfriend.

I certainly hope I don't! My wife might have a thing or two to say about that!

Just being funny. Students at my college used to speak of students at your college as Biola Bob's and Betty's. It was quaint and anachronistic even "back in the day."

No problem. I figured that's what you meant, but didn't want to jump to any conclusions.

 

[Romans922]

Yes this is for all PCA churches, but one thing you must realize about "study committees" in the PCA is that whatever report is produced by the study committee is not lawfully binding on anyone, it rather is to be viewed as "Pastoral Advice".

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

Overture 9 recommends that General Assembly “erect a study committee on deaconesses” to determine whether the election of women to the office of deacon is contrary to the Book of Church Order (BCO).

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, in my opinion

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, in my opinion

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

 

[TimV]

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

They have to do both. For purposes of (among other things) not always re-inventing the wheel, the BCO itself says that while not inspired it is to be considered authoritative.

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

Whether or not Deaconesses are Scriptural or not, the above is really a word game. The BCO requires all Deacons to be ordained, so someone unordained can't be a Deacon. According to the BCO you can't use that word for unordained people, and the only reason people do is to sneak around the BCO. According to these church "mission statements" that allow "unordained" Deacons, those Elders could, if they could talk their churches into it, allow their 5 year old daughters to be "unordained" Deacons.

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, in my opinion

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I mean, sure the BCO is useful, but the Scripture is of first importance (Or at least, it should be!).

By the way, the PCA BCO already allows individual Sessions to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7).

Thus BCO already allows for women to engage in diaconal service, but that service is to be at the direction of the Elders, and under the supervision of the ordain diaconate.

This overture seems to me to indicate more of a motive of pride than service. Those who speak of a desire to be of service to the church often seem to be more interested in the office or title, than the actual service itself.

Now, before everyone jumps on me...I know I'm overstating the case, but hopefully to make the point.

No change is needed in the BCO. The BCO already provides for women to be involved in diaconal service. It simply does not provide that the OFFICE is open to women.

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, in my opinion

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I mean, sure the BCO is useful, but the Scripture is of first importance (Or at least, it should be!).

By the way, the PCA BCO already allows individual Sessions to "select and appoint godly men and women of the congregation to assist the deacons in caring for the sick, the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, and others who may be in distress or need." (BCO 9-7).

Thus BCO already allows for women to engage in diaconal service, but that service is to be at the direction of the Elders, and under the supervision of the ordain diaconate.

This overture seems to me to indicate more of a motive of pride than service. Those who speak of a desire to be of service to the church often seem to be more interested in the office or title, than the actual service itself.

Now, before everyone jumps on me...I know I'm overstating the case, but hopefully to make the point.

No change is needed in the BCO. The BCO already provides for women to be involved in diaconal service. It simply does not provide that the OFFICE is open to women.

I hope there's enough boiling water in this pot for two.

Seriously though, it does seem to be a pride or power issue. What God fearing church and it's elders would say to any member, male or female, you can't visit the sick, you can't feed the hungry, you can't voluntarily clean the fellowship hall bathrooms because you're not a deacon(ess)? Obviously none would. So if a person (again, male or female) feels lead of the Lord to serve his/her fellow man is such ways why is the title deacon necessary? I see no command in Scripture that requires a title for us to serve one another.

*getting off my

now.*

 

[Craig]

The Bayly blog has discussed the women deacons issues...and specifically Tim Keller

Women deacons...the nub of the issue

Tim Keller...women deacons serving communion

A brief discussion of the danger Redeemer Presbyterian presents with their violation of BCO

Tim Keller "rebranding sin" (it's in the USA Today article linked from the blog post)...yes, I know this is not a discussion about deaconesses...but interesting to note.

 

[Croghanite]

Hence we have deaconesses.

Are they formally ordained (laying of hands) or simply titled 'deaconess' for their role of service?

Deaconesses are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained members.

What is the title for the men that are members of the diaconate for their service, but not ordained?

 

[wsw201]

Not only does the PCA BCO allow for women to serve under the direction of the diaconate but they also have WIC (Women In the Church). So the idea of having a position called "Deaconess" is unwarranted. Plus there is no Scriptural warrant for this position. Some try and use Pheobe and play around with 2 Tim but it takes some serious exegetical gymnastics to pull it off.

 

[Craig]

Seriously though, it does seem to be a pride or power issue. What God fearing church and it's elders would say to any member, male or female, you can't visit the sick, you can't feed the hungry, you can't voluntarily clean the fellowship hall bathrooms because you're not a deacon(ess)? Obviously none would. So if a person (again, male or female) feels lead of the Lord to serve his/her fellow man is such ways why is the title deacon necessary? I see no command in Scripture that requires a title for us to serve one another.

*getting off my

now.*

A deacon is more than a custodian or one who passes out food...it is a position of authority...Stephen was noted for his ability to teach...and it was his final sermon/indictment that led to his martyrdom. After my pastor has been preaching on this subject for the last month or so, I'm convinced deacons do, in fact, exercise authority...and that a deaconness is not the same thing as a deacon.

Unfortunately, there are churches in the PCA that think little of violating the BCO...women have hands laid on them for their "commissioning" at the *same time* men are...thus, it becomes clear they believe men and women may hold the *same* office Liberti PCA doing exactly that (click on image #12)

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

Not only does the PCA BCO allow for women to serve under the direction of the diaconate but they also have WIC (Women In the Church). So the idea of having a position called "Deaconess" is unwarranted. Plus there is no Scriptural warrant for this position. Some try and use Pheobe and play around with 2 Tim but it takes some serious exegetical gymnastics to pull it off.

 

[JBaldwin]

Contrary to the Book of Church Order, and contrary to the Scripture, in my opinion

And there is the rub. Why would the study committee not study the question in relation to Scripture rather than the BOC?

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I mean, sure the BCO is useful, but the Scripture is of first importance (Or at least, it should be!).

My first thought was they will address according to the BCO, because the Scriptures already told them what they are supposed to do and they don't like it. It's easier to get around a manmade ordinance than it is the Word of God.

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

A deacon is more than a custodian or one who passes out food...it is a position of authority...Stephen was noted for his ability to teach...and it was his final sermon/indictment that led to his martyrdom. After my pastor has been preaching on this subject for the last month or so, I'm convinced deacons do, in fact, exercise authority...and that a deaconness is not the same thing as a deacon.

I'm sorry, I thought the discussion was about those in "service roles" needing a title for that function. Thus the genesis of the term deaconess if the person serving happens to be a woman. Maybe I've misread the intent of the thread.

Personally, growing up in an Independent Baptist church, the deasonesses were what we called the wives of the deacons.

I agree with your statement above.