PCUSA to Make Sodomite Ordination Official?

[Fly Caster]

I'm reading that the presbyteries of the of the PCUSA are expected to ratify this abomination today with the needed 87th vote in favor.

Twin Cities Presbyterians could clear the way for gay clergy


Guess it's time for a fresh round of explaining to friends and family that I did not leave my life-long Baptist affiliation for this.

 

[Notthemama1984]

I thought this happened awhile back?

 

[Fly Caster]

I thought this happened awhile back?

Apparently it passed in General Assembly, needing ratification by a majority of prebyteries. I believe it has passed before but failed ratification.

 

[J. Dean]

Are you in a PCUSA church?

 

[Grillsy]

PCUSA to Make Sodomite Ordination Official?

I didn't know that city was still on the map.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Unfortunately the media just uses the term "Presbyterians." When I was a member of a PCA church I had to defend against misinformation all the time from people who thought that all Presbyterians are liberal.

The PC-USA is virtually apostate and has brought shame on the entire reformation.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Are you in a PCUSA church?

Nope

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

It has been unofficially official for a while now. This a mere waving of the hand.

Though to be honest to be worried about this in the PC(USA) is akin to wondering if the boilers were still operating as the Titanic slipped under the waves. Be gone from that place!

 

[Marrow Man]

This is a symptom and not at the heart of the problem. Once biblical authority has been rejected by a denomination, things like this just follow (although it may take a while).

Louisville is the HQ of the PC(USA). There are many such churches here. Let me take the opportunity to invite any folks in the PC(USA) who might be reading this thread to come worship with us at Midlane Park ARP Church this coming Lord's Day. You also have the option of worshipping at Redeemer PCA. There are some godly options out there.

 

[Wayne]

The GA Junkie blog has an article on this up currently: The GA Junkie

"PC(USA) Polity Implications Of Amendment 10-A Passage"

The Layman.org site is another good location for following matters in the PC(USA): The Layman Online

 

[Fly Caster]

Are you in a PCUSA church?

No. But too many of my dozens of cousins will read the papers tomorrow and say "Didn't Tim join a Presbyterian Church a few years ago...?"

 

[torstar]

Keep saying "That's PC-YOU ESS AYYYYYYYY!, not mine."

I have enough trouble trying to tell people that URCNA is one of the rare times UNITED is in a positive Reformed/Christian organization.

The Layman Online?? So that was their agenda all along?

 

[MLCOPE2]

I think I just threw up in my mouth.

 

[sastark]

The Layman.org site is another good location for following matters in the PC(USA): The Layman Online

Speaking of The Layman Online, here is a letter to the editor by my own Pastor Kent Moorlach which was posted at The Layman (Tim, this directly speaks to your issue of being "Presbyterian"):

PCUSA will ultimately be supplanted by a more faithful Presbyterian denomination

Posted Thursday, March 24, 2011

Five years ago, we planted Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP). Just prior to this launch, our core team spent some time discussing whether or not we would actually banner “Presbyterian” in our church name. I still recall one dear saint pleading with our group, “Could we please not use the term Presbyterian? My Christian neighbors are concerned that I attend a Presbyterian church and I constantly tell them that we are not those Presbyterians.”

Who are those Presbyterians?

Those are they that:

• parade as animals and offer prayers lead by tribal Indian shamans at their General Assemblies;
• participate fully with the World Council of Churches in Geneva but fudge on Calvin’s doctrines of grace;
• demand their seminarians use “gender inclusive language” when referring to God but exclude students preaching an historic and conservative theology;
• condemn national Israel for their politics but condone unbelievers partaking of the Lord’s Supper;
• require "congregational quotas” for session members but reject the qualifications for elder delineated in Scripture;
• include the historic confessions of other Reformed bodies in their Book of Confessions yet have the audacity to re-write another communion’s document in order to accommodate denominational agendas;
• have fraternal relations with the UCC but are unrecognized by NAPARC;
• claim they are “open to the Spirit” but confuse what the Spirit has finally said in the canon.

There is surely more.

I recognize that no church is perfect. My own denomination has come through over 200 years of debate and continues to seek purity of devotion to the Scriptures – this process is as old as Acts 15 (And yes, even before then).

So why did our church plant include an antiquated Greek word describing a form of government in our church name? Because we knew this day was coming: the day when the “mainline” PCUSA would no longer be the largest Presbyterian denomination. Our church embraces the heritage and convictions of the Westminster Confession of Faith (and Catechisms), and because these documents truly reflect the convictions of the Scriptures and a faithful Presbyterian church, we were convinced that the PCUSA would finally fracture, lose enough churches, and ultimately be supplanted by another, more faithful, Presbyterian denomination – one with whom our church would be pleased to represent our own communion. (Right now, that’s looking like the PCA, and when they are ready to join the ARP, we’ll be ready!)

The PCUSA certainly has the freedom to pursue the course on which it treads. The warnings regarding this day have been clearly posted by Machen and others. Regardless, with a sense of sadness, we mourn the trials of the PCUSA; especially for the many committed believers who wrestle with future affiliations. But a new day is here, and in all humility, we’d like to have the name back!

Rev. Kent Moorlach
Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, Ca.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Wow. That may be the best letter detailing the issue I have ever read. Excellent!

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

By the way, contrast what the faithful gospel minister of Communion Presbyterian Church, ARP said with the words of a heretic at another Communion Presbyterian Church, PC(USA) in California.

Scripture does not support heterosexual monogamy
Posted Monday, May 9, 2011

In response: What the PCUSA confessions say about marriage
It is easy and convenient for Carmen Fowler to mention what the confessions say about marriage, but she neglects what the Scriptures themselves say, and leaves out an important part of the Confession of 1967, which also places marriage among those relationships within society where injustice and discrimination, both racial and orientation discrimination, occur. The Confession of 1967 (9.44) reads,

a. God has created the peoples of the earth to be one universal family. In his reconciling love he overcomes the barriers between brothers (sic) and breaks down every form of discrimination based on racial or ethnic difference, real or imaginary. The church is called to bring all men (sic) to receive and uphold one another as persons in all relationships of life: in employment, housing, education, leisure, marriage, family, church, and the exercise of political rights. Therefore the church labors for the abolition of all racial discrimination and ministers to those injured by it. Congregations, individuals, or groups of Christians who exclude, dominate, or patronize their fellowmen (sic), however subtly, resist the Spirit of God and bring contempt on the faith which they profess.


The way I read this, we are called to defend the civil rights of all people, including overturning the discrimination written into U.S. law with the "Defense of Marriage Act" which separates LGBTQ couples from the 1,138 Federal benefits and responsibilities that come with Federal recognition of their marital rights. As American Christians, taking any other stance denies our equal protection under the law and the social equity and justice to which Jesus called us. We already have good policies on employment and housing protection for LGBTQ persons in the PCUSA, but you wouldn't know it since our policies haven't been shared widely by the denominational leadership.

Fowler also fails to mention that the form of marriage that is almost a Biblical universal is polygamy, specifically, patriarchal male polygyny (multiple wives). Jews didn't begin to cease the practice until the 10th century CE, and then mainly in Europe. While there is a complex polemic in Scripture about how such polygamist families struggle to find harmony in such relationships, especially around legitimate heirs to the throne, the practice of polygamy explains Mark's recognition of Jesus' siblings, most likely by another of Mary's "sister-wives."

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. (NRSV)

In fact, instead of marriage, both Jesus and Paul encourage celibacy unless one cannot control their sexual urges. See Matthew 19:10-14 and 1 Corinthians 7:8-9. Marriage, then, was the backup position for the weak.

What Fowler and others argue with their facile conflations of Scripture is a cultural argument to uphold heterosexual privilege and superiority. To pretend that the Scripture is univocal in its support of heterosexual monogamy is to impute one’s own cultural biases into not only the confessions, but our present conversation about the authority of Scripture. The Scripture is the higher authority, after all, and if the confessions contain historic, cultural misconceptions about the meaning and forms of marriage in the Bible, then they must be reconsidered, first in the light of the love of Christ, and then in light of the witness of Scripture.

Rev. Will McGarvey
Community Presbyterian Church, Pittsburg, Calif.

 

[Fly Caster]

Good article, Seth. Thanks.

In spite of my consternation, I'm all for retaining the Presbyterian name.

I'm now a "Southern Presbyterian," so that makes two identities, in one phrase, that I am not willing to give up even though the true meaning is hijacked and maligned by the liberals.

 

[DMcFadden]

Seth,

That was a brilliantly and indisputably-fact-based letter! It describes pretty much the whole mainline experience, regardless of polity. The episcopal, presbyterian, and congregational polities have all been "gamed" by the modernist agenda. My judicatory pulled out, practically en masse, from the mainline ABCUSA more than 5 years ago. With the exception of the denomination-specific features of the letter, it unfortunately captures the spirit of the mainline in America into this century.

The problem, dear friends, is not about our polity (or even Calvinism vs. Arminianism, even granting that there are some connections here), but about a biblical vs. a secularist approach to the Bible. One need not be a card-carrying Clarkian to appreciate his persuasive case against Secular Rationalism, Empiricism, AND Irrationality. Without the axiom (or "presupposition") of Revelation, we are epistemologically hopeless! Both Calvinists and Arminians (despite their seriously defective theology) who hold to an inerrant Bible stand on one side of a chasm separated from modernist "Calvinists-lite" and mainliners of a more Arminian heritage.

 

[Edward]

If you click on the first link above, don't miss reading the cutline under the picture.

 

[Rufus]

So does this mean the few conservative PCUSA churches are gonna leave?

 

[Notthemama1984]

Observers Tricia Dykers Koenig, left, and Michelle Ready, right, smile as the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church meeting Thursday, July 8, 2010 in Minneapolis votes to approve lifting the churches ban on ordaining non-celibate gays and lesbians as clergy.

Does the above refer to the PCUSA allowing abstinate gays to be clergy, but now they are going to allow practicing gays?

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------

So does this mean the few conservative PCUSA churches are gonna leave?

What conservative churches?

The EPC is gaining PCUSA churches by the bucketloads and I am worried that most are not what we here on PB would call "conservative."

 

[MMasztal]

The PCUSA is losing members (and congregations) by the thousands every year. Maybe a move like this will hasten and seal their fate.

 

[Rufus]

The EPC is gaining PCUSA churches by the bucketloads and I am worried that most are not what we here on PB would call "conservative."

Aren't there a few PCUSA members right here on the PB?

 

[DMcFadden]

LOUISVILLE

A majority of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)’s 173 presbyteries have ratified an amendment to the church’s constitution that removes a provision flatly prohibiting the ordination of sexually active unmarried Presbyterians as church officers.

The 87th vote in favor of the measure ― dubbed Amendment 10-A after it was approved by the PC(USA)’s 219th General Assembly last summer ― was cast today (May 10) by the Presbytery of Twin Cities Area.

The unofficial tally now stands at 87-62, with 24 presbyteries still to vote. The change takes effect July 10 ― one year from the adjournment of the 219th Assembly.

The action replaces the current G-6.0106b in The Book of Order with new language. That provision, which was placed in the constitution following the 1996 Assembly, requires of church officers “fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or chastity in singleness.”

As a result of the vote, ordaining bodies ― local church sessions for elders and deacons and presbyteries for ministers ― will have more flexibility in determining individual candidates’ fitness for ordained office in the denomination.

“Clearly what has changed is that persons in a same-gender relationship can be considered for ordination,” General Assembly Stated Clerk Gradye Parsons told the Presbyterian News Service. “The gist of our ordination standards is that officers submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and ordaining bodies (presbyteries for ministers and sessions for elders and deacons) have the responsibility to examine each candidate individually to ensure that all candidates do so with no blanket judgments.”

"No blanket judgments"??? Hmmmm.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Ironically they picked my anniversary to make it official (and John Calvin's birthday).

 

[Wayne]

The PCUSA is losing members (and congregations) by the thousands every year. Maybe a move like this will hasten and seal their fate.

Due mostly to their legal structure, whereby the presbytery owns the local congregation's property, most churches will stay regardless. People, meanwhile, will continue to leave.

Ultimately what I think will happen will be a merger with the likes of the UCC, or more likely, some mega-merger (UCC/ELCA/etc.).

I do think that the whole affair has caused some in that denomination to rethink their faith and to become more faithfully biblical as a result.

 

[Scottish Lass]

Due mostly to their legal structure, whereby the presbytery owns the local congregation's property, most churches will stay regardless. People, meanwhile, will continue to leave.

The secular courts don't always agree, but the cost of the lawsuits can run as much (or more) than the settlements. Would that the congregations would prize fidelity to the word of God over a building.