Perilous times in the last days

[Rescued]

2 Tim. 3:1-5
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

The world has always been marked by these things, so isn't the Spirit of God warning here that the church would be marked by these things in the last days?

 

[Taylor]

A few thoughts:

1. While you are right that the world has to some degree always been characterized by these things, I cannot imagine that these things could ever characterize the true church of Jesus Christ. She sins, falters, and sometimes drift away, but what is described here is utter godlessness, not waywardness.
2. Evil always seeks how it may become more evil. It is unsatiable. I struggle with my eschatology here. While I believe that the church will continue to grow and triumph throughout the world, I believe the world will yet grow worse and worse (2 Tim. 3:13). That the world has always been characterized by these things doesn't mean they can't get worse in them.
3. The "last days" began with Pentecost; it is not some future time.

 

[Rescued]

A few thoughts:

1. While you are right that the world has to some degree always been characterized by these things, I cannot imagine that these things could ever characterize the true church of Jesus Christ. She sins, falters, and sometimes drift away, but what is described here is utter godlessness, not waywardness.
2. Evil always seeks how it may become more evil. It is unsatiable. I struggle with my eschatology here. While I believe that the church will continue to grow and triumph throughout the world, I believe the world will yet grow worse and worse (2 Tim. 3:13). That the world has always been characterized by these things doesn't mean they can't get worse in them.
3. The "last days" began with Pentecost; it is not some future time.

I just listened to this, it was helpful. Owen used the passage to rebuke the church of his day. I don't believe the Apostle here is saying men would possess all of these characteristics all at once, but rather is showing the marks of apostasy within professing churches. Thus the times are perilous because the presence of true churches will become less and less...

 

[Pergamum]

I think this era will be one of general gospel expansion to the whole world, marked by a falling away towards the end (Satan's last gasps) and then the End. So we should be generally optimistic.

 

[Rescued]

I think this era will be one of general gospel expansion to the whole world, marked by a falling away towards the end (Satan's last gasps) and then the End. So we should be generally optimistic.

But this type of thinking tends to accept a nominal Christianity in place of the faith once delivered to the Saints. And that's exactly what Paul is talking about. They shall have a "form of godliness" but "denying the power thereof". So yes indeed there will be a general gospel expansion of lukewarm, nominal Christianity but while the heart of true religion rots away.

 

[Pergamum]

But this type of thinking tends to accept a nominal Christianity in place of the faith once delivered to the Saints. And that's exactly what Paul is talking about. They shall have a "form of godliness" but "denying the power thereof". So yes indeed there will be a general gospel expansion of lukewarm, nominal Christianity but while the heart of true religion rots away.

Everywhere the wheat is planted there is tares. But the Gospel has spread even to the most remote tribes. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Global success.

 

[Rescued]

Everywhere the wheat is planted there is tares. But the Gospel has spread even to the most remote tribes. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Global success.

That prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century to which the Apostle bears witness (Col. 1:23) but there are further prophecies after that concerning apostasy, that the church would go through the dark times of antichrist, to which history bears witness. Antichrist suffered a tremendous blow at the Reformation and he lost a lot of his power. But now instead of exercising political power, he seeks to befriend the Protestant church and gradually corrupt her with his fornications

 

[Pergamum]

That prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century to which the Apostle bears witness (Col. 1:23) but there are further prophecies after that concerning apostasy, that the church would go through the dark times of antichrist, to which history bears witness. Antichrist suffered a tremendous blow at the Reformation and he lost a lot of his power. But now instead of exercising political power, he seeks to befriend the Protestant church and gradually corrupt her with his fornications

No it wasn't. The Great Commission was given in conjunction with the command to baptize. Has the command to baptize ceased? So too the command to reach the whole world has not ceased, meaning there is work to be done. Most of the world was still unreached during the first century. Don't fall into Preterist horse-baloney.

Many Antichrists have been around, but there is The Antichrist yet to come.

 

[Jack K]

In the Spirit's great wisdom and blessing, the missionary efforts of the past few centuries have brought a huge expansion of the gospel witness into parts of the world not penetrated before. This witness has seemed to pick up speed with every passing decade since the modern missionary movement began. It would take an exclusively Western-world focus to look at the world today and conclude that the gospel is in decline.

As for 2 Timothy 3, it appears from context that Paul is warning against false professors within the church. It's also clear that this was becoming a problem already while Timothy was alive and ministering.

 

[Rescued]

No it wasn't. The Great Commission was given in conjunction with the command to baptize. Has the command to baptize ceased? So too the command to reach the whole world has not ceased, meaning there is work to be done. Most of the world was still unreached during the first century. Don't fall into Preterist horse-baloney.

Many Antichrists have been around, but there is The Antichrist yet to come.

The futuristic antichrist belief is exactly what the Biblical antichrist wants you to believe. It helps him to go undetected. The goal for the church has always been and always will be to evangelize, but that doesn't change the fact that the Day of Judgment at Christ's 2nd coming is imminent. He must come at some point. There will always be new people born into the world. A partial-preterist, historical and future fulfillment view is kind of what I have adopted from studying church history. Postmillenialism and premillenialism are just as much baloney as preterism.

 

[Rescued]

In the Spirit's great wisdom and blessing, the missionary efforts of the past few centuries have brought a huge expansion of the gospel witness into parts of the world not penetrated before. This witness has seemed to pick up speed with every passing decade since the modern missionary movement began. It would take an exclusively Western-world focus to look at the world today and conclude that the gospel is in decline.

As for 2 Timothy 3, it appears from context that Paul is warning against false professors within the church. It's also clear that this was becoming a problem already while Timothy was alive and ministering.

Agreed. The last days can be taken in a few different ways. The latter times can be a better translation here. The whole of church history is technically the last days. So this is maybe the kind of prophecy that has fulfillment over and over again and yet I really think judging from the past 100 years of declension it may have a greater fulfillment at the very end which seems to be what Christ describes in Matt 24 as the time of the end being as the days of Lot and Noah.

 

[Pergamum]

The futuristic antichrist belief is exactly what the Biblical antichrist wants you to believe. It helps him to go undetected. The goal for the church has always been and always will be to evangelize, but that doesn't change the fact that the Day of Judgment at Christ's 2nd coming is imminent. He must come at some point. There will always be new people born into the world. A partial-preterist, historical and future fulfillment view is kind of what I have adopted from studying church history. Postmillenialism and premillenialism are just as much baloney as preterism.

If you are so sure why are you asking for opinions? I differ on this issue. Many also side with me.

 

[Rescued]

If you are so sure why are you asking for opinions? I differ on this issue. Many also side with me.

My post simply asked for thoughts on the state of the church in the last days as it relates to the prophecy in 2 Tim 3. But in regards to eschatology in general I am convinced by 2 Peter 3 that the Final Judgment will come upon the world as a thief in the night. In other words, it's imminent. How can you read Peter's words and come to any other conclusion?

 

[Pergamum]

My post simply asked for thoughts on the state of the church in the last days as it relates to the prophecy in 2 Tim 3. But in regards to eschatology in general I am convinced by 2 Peter 3 that the Final Judgment will come upon the world as a thief in the night. In other words, it's imminent. How can you read Peter's words and come to any other conclusion?

ok. Fair enough, Your position is also well represented. Eschatology is speculative, so we will settle our bets in heaven and one of us can tell the other, "Told ya so!"

 

[Rescued]

ok. Fair enough, Your position is also well represented. Eschatology is speculative, so we will settle our bets in heaven and one of us can tell the other, "Told ya so!"

Amen brother! It would be arrogant for anyone to claim they have every detail figured out, but I do believe there are too many positions promoted out there in order to sell books. I revere the way that both the reformers and the reformed Baptists put it in their confessions. They don't speculate about details they just give the point of knowing that the Lord is coming...that we need to be ready for it!!

3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin, and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity:a so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly. Amen.b

WCF Ch. 33

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Jeremy @Rescued ,

You said,

My post simply asked for thoughts on the state of the church in the last days as it relates to the prophecy in 2 Tim 3.

It's a good question. In a nutshell, I believe – along with the contemporary amillennialists (Beale, Hendriksen, DE Johnson, etc) – that the church will be purified through affliction / persecution especially at the end of the last days where it is written concerning "the day of Christ" : "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess 2:2,3)

There shall be a great apostatizing, many unregenerate / non-elect church-goers saying, "I didn't bargain for this sort of stuff", when the going gets really rough. The true church, comprised of the elect, frail and faulty though nonetheless faithful and repentant, will cleave to their Saviour through it all, cleansed and sustained by Him, whose sheep shall never perish (John 10:27,28,29; Romans 8:38,39).

The 2 Tim 3 passage you quote, while referring to the wicked generally, also applies to the false brethren in the company of the true church, but not to Jesus' bride herself.

 

[Rescued]

Hello Jeremy @Rescued ,

You said,

It's a good question. In a nutshell, I believe – along with the contemporary amillennialists (Beale, Hendriksen, DE Johnson, etc) – that the church will be purified through affliction / persecution especially at the end of the last days where it is written concerning "the day of Christ" : "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess 2:2,3)

There shall be a great apostatizing, many unregenerate / non-elect church-goers saying, "I didn't bargain for this sort of stuff", when the going gets really rough. The true church, comprised of the elect, frail and faulty though nonetheless faithful and repentant, will cleave to their Saviour through it all, cleansed and sustained by Him, whose sheep shall never perish (John 10:27,28,29; Romans 8:38,39).

The 2 Tim 3 passage you quote, while referring to the wicked generally, also applies to the false brethren in the company of the true church, but not to Jesus' bride herself.

I'm with the reformers and historic Reformed confessions in their original versions, that the passage in 2 Thess. 2 is a reference to the apostasy that took place nearly 1700 years ago and that the pope is that man of sin and son of perdition. I find it odd how so many people today think all these prophecies were referring to events thousands of years in the future and had no soon to come fulfillment. Obviously though the 2nd coming is future but as far as I know that's all that hasn't been fulfilled.

The bride of Christ is the true believers in the churches, yes that I can agree with.

 

[Rescued]

Hello Jeremy @Rescued ,

You said,

It's a good question. In a nutshell, I believe – along with the contemporary amillennialists (Beale, Hendriksen, DE Johnson, etc) – that the church will be purified through affliction / persecution especially at the end of the last days where it is written concerning "the day of Christ" : "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess 2:2,3)

There shall be a great apostatizing, many unregenerate / non-elect church-goers saying, "I didn't bargain for this sort of stuff", when the going gets really rough. The true church, comprised of the elect, frail and faulty though nonetheless faithful and repentant, will cleave to their Saviour through it all, cleansed and sustained by Him, whose sheep shall never perish (John 10:27,28,29; Romans 8:38,39).

The 2 Tim 3 passage you quote, while referring to the wicked generally, also applies to the false brethren in the company of the true church, but not to Jesus' bride herself.

I'm with the reformers and historic Reformed confessions in their original versions, that the passage in 2 Thess. 2 is a reference to the apostasy that took place nearly 1700 years ago and that the pope is that man of sin and son of perdition. I find it odd how so many people today think all these prophecies were referring to events thousands of years in the future and had no soon to come fulfillment. Obviously though the 2nd coming is future but as far as I know that's all that hasn't been fulfilled.

The bride of Christ is the true believers in the churches, yes that I can agree with.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Jeremy, there has been apostatizing throughout the NT church age, and I find it odd that the saying concerning "the day of Christ" : "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess 2:2,3), can be construed to refer to a past event.

We may well be blind-sided by another (besides the pope) arch-villain who shall arise to fulfill Scripture, although this recent post by the Aquila Report did catch my eye: In Ur, the New World Religion Was Launched On March 6, 2021; On 6 March, 2021 the Pope officially launched his new religion....

 

[VictorBravo]

although this recent post by the Aquila Report did catch my eye: In Ur, the New World Religion Was Launched On March 6, 2021; On 6 March, 2021 the Pope officially launched his new religion....

Steve, I had to read that a couple times to convince myself it wasn't satire. It is so over-the-top pathetic and arrogant at the same time.

May God sustain us.

 

[Rescued]

Jeremy, there has been apostatizing throughout the NT church age, and I find it odd that the saying concerning "the day of Christ" : "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess 2:2,3), can be construed to refer to a past event.

We may well be blind-sided by another (besides the pope) arch-villain who shall arise to fulfill Scripture, although this recent post by the Aquila Report did catch my eye: In Ur, the New World Religion Was Launched On March 6, 2021; On 6 March, 2021 the Pope officially launched his new religion....

In the first century the question was, when is Christ coming back? Was it like in a few years? Nobody knew. Some had said the resurrection had taken place already and overthrew the faith of some. So Paul says the Day of the Lord wouldn't come until after a falling away which would reveal the "man of sin". But there is nothing in that passage that suggests the Lord's coming would immediately follow this appearance of antichrist. In fact, Revelation fills us in on some details as to the long persecution of God's people under the tyranny of antichrist.

The reformers understood this and were very outspoken about it. And in fact the Reformation gained great momentum once it was commonly believed that the papacy was antichrist. John Wyclyffe the morning star of the Reformation was very outspoken about this. So were all the reformers, the anabaptists, Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, Ian Paisley and the list goes on and on. So the futurist antichrist view is really the new kid on the block, and the burden rests on the proponents of this new view to overthrow centuries of unanimous agreement among the most solid Christian leaders in church history.

The current pope creating a new religion or whatever the blasphemer is doing is simply more deception from the antichrist papal system. Satan is furious because he knows his time is brief.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I’m thankful for the wisdom of the framers of our confession of faith in their identifying of the papal office as ‘that man of sin’. I think it came to be believed that they were simply men of their time in doing so, and that as the papacy seemed to lose its ascendancy, and seemed de-fanged and de-clawed in the West, better wisdom should now prevail. But has that better wisdom than our Reformation fathers held up well... The man occupying the papal seat still does “as God sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” As the West continues its descent into atheism.

 

[Brian T]

Jeremy, there has been apostatizing throughout the NT church age, and I find it odd that the saying concerning "the day of Christ" : "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess 2:2,3), can be construed to refer to a past event.

We may well be blind-sided by another (besides the pope) arch-villain who shall arise to fulfill Scripture, although this recent post by the Aquila Report did catch my eye: In Ur, the New World Religion Was Launched On March 6, 2021; On 6 March, 2021 the Pope officially launched his new religion....

Makes one wonder why the Vatican would be interested in restoring and refurbishing ziggurats in the ancient city of Ur.

Then again, this is the same Vatican that thinks it's a good idea to have Pachamama statues erected in St. Peter's.

There really does seem to be some really weird stuff going on over there in Rome, especially since Vatican II. Might have to rethink the link between the Antichrist and Rome.

BTW, those Sedevacantists have been saying this for years (i.e. the papacy since Vatican II = Antichrist), so there's that.

I just came across this video: Apocalypse Now in the Vatican

 

[RamistThomist]

Makes one wonder why the Vatican would be interested in restoring and refurbishing ziggurats in the ancient city of Ur.

Then again, this is the same Vatican that thinks it's a good idea to have Pachamama statues erected in St. Peter's.

There really does seem to be some really weird stuff going on over there in Rome, especially since Vatican II. Might have to rethink the link between the Antichrist and Rome.

BTW, those Sedevacantists have been saying this for years (i.e. the papacy since Vatican II = Antichrist), so there's that.

I just came across this video: Apocalypse Now in the Vatican

The Vatican also has one of the largest satellites in the world designed to look for aliens.

Exovaticana

When I first posted this review, someone asked “Are you seriously saying that aliens are coming?” Of course not. I am saying the Vatican believes alien saviors are coming. I think the…

tentsofshem.wordpress.com

 

[Brian T]

The Vatican also has one of the largest satellites in the world designed to look for aliens.

Exovaticana

When I first posted this review, someone asked “Are you seriously saying that aliens are coming?” Of course not. I am saying the Vatican believes alien saviors are coming. I think the…

tentsofshem.wordpress.com

After that Aquila Report article, that Dimon Brothers' video, and now reading about their satellites looking for aliens...

Now I am really shaking my head and wondering just what is going on. Talk about going down a rabbit hole.

 

[Rescued]

I’m thankful for the wisdom of the framers of our confession of faith in their identifying of the papal office as ‘that man of sin’. I think it came to be believed that they were simply men of their time in doing so, and that as the papacy seemed to lose its ascendancy, and seemed de-fanged and de-clawed in the West, better wisdom should now prevail. But has that better wisdom than our Reformation fathers held up well... The man occupying the papal seat still does “as God sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” As the West continues its descent into atheism.

Yes I think you are right. The prophecy states that the man of sin would sit amongst God's people and exalt himself even above God himself. That has happened and been fulfilled for centuries. The prophecy also states that the Lord would consume him with the Spirit of His mouth and destroy Him with the brightness of His coming. Now the Reformers believed that this being in two parts was interpreted thus:

that Wicked spirit of antichrist which is the spirit of the devil was what or who gave him his power and authority in the world, even to rule over the kings of the earth. It is that spirit, that mystery of iniquity which corrupts the earth with its heathen and pagan superstitions. This spirit of antichrist is consumed by the Spirit of the Lord's mouth, the preaching of the true gospel. At the Reformation this began and has continued since but in recent times has diminished greatly. And is it any wonder these days now that so many deny these truths, that the papacy is on the ascent again? Concealment is one of antichrist's greatest assets.

And then part two, the Lord will utterly destroy this false religion with the brightness of His coming at the Day of Judgment. I think also there is a connection here with the preaching of the gospel and also the preaching of the judgment to come, both which were pillars of the apostolic faith, which needs to be held in tact. And is it any wonder Satan has led most evangelical churches down this "left behind" rabbit trail to get people looking for a futurist scenario and deny the imminency of final judgment?

The whole thing is like when John the Baptist sent his followers to Christ saying, are you the one who is to come or should we look for another. And He responded by telling them to remind John of the works He had done which showed Him to be who He was.

 

[Phil D.]

The Vatican also has one of the largest satellites in the world designed to look for aliens.

Ummm.... the article briefly mentions that this "satellite" is in Arizona, but the last time I checked satellites are used in space rather than being ground-based. However, in doing a little research it does seem the Vatican participates in some measure in activities at an observatory in Arizona...

 

[RamistThomist]

Ummm.... the article briefly mentions that this "satellite" is in Arizona, but the last time I checked satellites are used in space rather than being ground-based. However, in doing a little research it does seem the Vatican participates in some measure in activities at an observatory in Arizona...

My fault. I was speaking too quickly.

 

[RamistThomist]

My only quibble with Pope = Man of Sin language is that it makes the Vatican the Temple of God and "among God's people" the Roman Catholic congregation, since no one else is in communion with him.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Jeremy, so I understand your vantage point, what school of eschatology are you affiliated with, the historicist?