Piper/Desiring God believe that all infants........

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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
dying in infancy are elect!

Taken from:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/infant_salv/infants.html

John Piper and many others, however, believe that there is one more biblical strand of evidence which must be considered. This evidence leads us to conclude that God saves all infants who die.

In a funeral sermon several years ago for an infant, Dr. Piper summarized the basis for his conclusion:

Jesus says in John 9:41 to those who were offended at his teaching and asked if he thought they were blind-he said, "If you were blind, you would not have had sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."

In other words, if a person lacks the natural capacity to see the revelation of God's will or God's glory then that person's sin would not remain-God would not bring the person into final judgment for not believing what he had no natural capacity to see.

The other text is Romans 1:20 where Paul is dealing with persons who have not heard the gospel and have no access to it, but who do have access to the revelation of God's glory in nature:

Romans 1:20 "Since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

In other words: if a person did not have access to the revelation of God's glory - did not have the natural capacity to see it and understand it, then Paul implies they would have an excuse at the judgment.

The point for us is that even though we human beings are under the penalty of everlasting judgment and death because of the fall of our race into sin and the sinful nature that we all have, nevertheless God only executes this judgment on those who have the natural capacity to see his glory and understand his will, and refuse to embrace it as their treasure.

Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.

Scott adds: This would have to include people whom have never heard the gospel or never heard of Jesus

In another sermon, he adds:

God in his justice will find a way to absolve infants who die of their depravity. It will surely be through Christ. But beyond that we would be guessing. It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God's grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.
It is important to emphasize that, in our view, God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart.


my emphasis added w/ color and bolded areas. spb

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
Isn't that a ntural extension of the WCF ch. X?:

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.


http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_X.html

Elect infants, not all infants!
 
Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.

Scott adds: This would have to include people whom have never heard the gospel or never heard of Jesus

Scott, Piper is saying infants do not have the capacity to know and reject God's eternal attributes seen in His creation. Most people who are alive that have never heard the gospel or Jesus have this capacity, excluding infants and the SEVERELY mentally ill whose brains function as infants' brains do. Therefore, Piper would claim that all people who have mental capacity to see and reject God's eternal attributes in His creation, whether they be with or without knowlegde of Christ, will be without excuse on judgment day.
 
Gods word is. There is no proof texts to support universalism when it comes to the infant. In fact, all the major creeds disagree that all infants are elect. I know of no historic reformer who holds such a position.

'Potential' is no more than speculation. Gods word is clear; there are two kinds of peoples, elect and reprobate. This description crosses the parameter of creation.
 
Originally posted by piningforChrist
Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.

Scott adds: This would have to include people whom have never heard the gospel or never heard of Jesus

Scott, Piper is saying infants do not have the capacity to know and reject God's eternal attributes seen in His creation. Most people who are alive that have never heard the gospel or Jesus have this capacity, excluding infants and the SEVERELY mentally ill whose brains function as infants' brains do. Therefore, Piper would claim that all people who have mental capacity to see and reject God's eternal attributes in His creation, whether they be with or without knowlegde of Christ, will be without excuse on judgment day.

Matthew, how does this square with God being sovereign in His act of regenerating an elect person? - or would Piper simply say that _all_ infants who die/severe mentally ill are elect to begin with?
 
Originally posted by piningforChrist
Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.

Scott adds: This would have to include people whom have never heard the gospel or never heard of Jesus

Scott, Piper is saying infants do not have the capacity to know and reject God's eternal attributes seen in His creation. Most people who are alive that have never heard the gospel or Jesus have this capacity, excluding infants and the SEVERELY mentally ill whose brains function as infants' brains do. Therefore, Piper would claim that all people who have mental capacity to see and reject God's eternal attributes in His creation, whether they be with or without knowlegde of Christ, will be without excuse on judgment day.

Again,
this cannot be supported theologiclly. As I mentioned above, God has created two peoples; elect and reprobate. Infants, like the adult are brought forth in sin. To assume God saves all children is speculating upon emotion and borders upon universalism. What about the indian deep in the forrest of africa that has never heard the gospel and never will?
 
Correct me if i am wrong, but

Even if an infant or disabled person could never reject God personally, wouldn't he or she still be guilty for Adams sin?
 
Originally posted by satz
Correct me if i am wrong, but

Even if an infant or disabled person could never reject God personally, wouldn't he or she still be guilty for Adams sin?

Absolutely! Thats the point; Gods word says that no one can complain to the potter, why have you made me as such. He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy upon........

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12
13. John 3:8
14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12

The idea of universalism would have to be taken then to it's farthest conclusion, that being, all men whom have not knowledge about Christ and His gospel would need to be graded upon this same curve. It just doesn't work. It's a faulty theology. One cannot just include the infant and exclude the other levels of ignorance.

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
"Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases" WCF X

What if the Spirit pleased that ALL infants that died are elect?

The fact is there is not a solid Scriptural defense against this prospect - and I think it is supported by "suffer the little children".

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
"Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases" WCF X

What if the Spirit pleased that ALL infants that died are elect?

The fact is there is not a solid Scriptural defense against this prospect - and I think it is supported by "suffer the little children".

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]

The little children spoken of above were covenant children. Christ Himself says that they belong to the kingdom. Would he have said that as well about the Egyptian children whom perished in the flood during Noahs day?

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

*All the thoughts of all men were wicked. Continually evil. Only Noah found GRACE; no one else. all perished. This to include children!

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
 
Mat 19:13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people,
Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."
Mat 19:15 And he laid his hands on them and went away.

The greek for children here is paidion.

G3813
παιδιÌον
paidion
pahee-dee'-on
Neuter diminutive of G3816; a childling (of either sex), that is, (properly) an infant, or (by extension) a half grown boy or girl; figuratively an immature Christian: - (little, young) child, damsel.

In this case, cobvenant children or immature Christian
 
Ch. X (Effectual Calling) of the London Confession of Baptist Faith doth appear to suggest that all infants are saved, or at the least it comes closer to it than the WCF since it removes the qualifier "elect":


III. Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;[10] who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth;[11] so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

10. John 3:3, 5-6
11. John 3:8
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
"Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases" WCF X

What if the Spirit pleased that ALL infants that died are elect?

The fact is there is not a solid Scriptural defense against this prospect - and I think it is supported by "suffer the little children".

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]

I myself cannot imagine why the Lord would have Joshua devote all those cities to destruction and then choose to save some of the infants.

Jos 8:24 When Israel had finished killing all the inhabitants of Ai in the open wilderness where they pursued them, and all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword, all Israel returned to Ai and struck it down with the edge of the sword.
Jos 8:25 And all who fell that day, both men and women, were 12,000, all the people of Ai.
Jos 8:26 But Joshua did not draw back his hand with which he stretched out the javelin until he had devoted all the inhabitants of Ai to destruction.
Jos 8:27 Only the livestock and the spoil of that city Israel took as their plunder, according to the word of the LORD that he commanded Joshua.

Jos 10:35 And they captured it on that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword. And he devoted every person in it to destruction that day, as he had done to Lachish.
Jos 10:36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron. And they fought against it
Jos 10:37 and captured it and struck it with the edge of the sword, and its king and its towns, and every person in it. He left none remaining, as he had done to Eglon, and devoted it to destruction and every person in it.
Jos 10:38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned back to Debir and fought against it
Jos 10:39 and he captured it with its king and all its towns. And they struck them with the edge of the sword and devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. Just as he had done to Hebron and to Libnah and its king, so he did to Debir and to its king.

And it goes on and on . . .
 
Death is the prescribed post-fall normative method to pass from life into the presence of God for judgment - death is not the determinator of election - God is.

"Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases" WCF X

Again - who determines the disposition of the elect? why could ALL infants not be elect?

How does Christ exhibit God's character toward children? Mercy or judgment?
 
I think it is always dangerous to speak where the Scriptures are silent on a matter such as election of infants. To say "all babies go to heaven" is not a statement Scripture makes explicitly and I think it is a stretch to try and infer it strongly from any texts as well.

Saying elect infants are saved is safe because, by definition, the elect are saved. Saying anything more is purely speculative.

At least three Scriptural analogies that might infer against that idea are the Flood, the judgment of Sodom and Gommorrah, and the harim or the ban. During the Flood and the judgment of Sodom and Gommorrah, everything was killed. During the harim, as Israel was commanded to kill every man, woman, child, and animal in a city it was particularly graphic. One might argue that destroying a whole city by fire and brimstone is one thing but specifically ordering that infants be killed by the sword is quite another.

The election of all infants is, for me, a subject I just leave to God. It's never really edifying to talk about and causes more consternation in immature believers than it's worth as a subject to consider.

Insofar as Scripture is not silent about the election of Covenant Children who die in infancy it is a way to give real hope and comfort to believing parents. Insofar as Scripture is silent about the election of pagan infants (and even might militate to assume the opposite) it just isn't something I'm willing to give any confidence to.
 
Originally posted by Pilgrim
Ch. X (Effectual Calling) of the London Confession of Baptist Faith doth appear to suggest that all infants are saved, or at the least it comes closer to it than the WCF since it removes the qualifier "elect":


III. Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;[10] who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth;[11] so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

10. John 3:3, 5-6
11. John 3:8

Chris,
The 1689 reads:

3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

Gerry, this is true.

Jos 10:28 And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.
 
Scott,

After seeing your post and looking up the 1689 LBCF on Reformed Reader, Founders, CCEL, etc., I stand corrected.

I pasted the 1689 from the Reformed Confessions.exe file by Daric Bossman. He cites the Primitive Baptist Web Station as the source for the 1689, but now that I think of it, I've found errors and typos in the LBCF as posted there before. I had remembered a sermon where a pastor (Bob Vincent) compared the WCF and LBCF here, and that's why I posted it. Obviously he must have been using Bossman's software too because every other version I found online said "elect infants".
 
Briefly:

Each life has a purpose and definite span.

Each life is judged on the basis of their innate potential to acknowledge and submit to the sovereignty of God for eternity.

Some have the innate potential, some do not.

The gateway from temporal existence to a-temporal existence is death. (because of A&E)

The span and quantity of life before death is determined by God and:

1. Provides God with people for His plan with whom He will have eternal communion - the Elect

2. Provides God with people for His plan from whom He will be eternally separated - the Reprobate

Both types exist to serve His purpose. Soli Deo Gloria.

2's exist to become self aware and objectively prove that Man cannot achieve his own salvation and as catalytic and interactive participants in God's plan of redemptive history.

1's exist to become self aware and objectively/temporally understand that the consequences of sin and Free Will are detrimental to them and to trust and love God as He will eventually remove their capacity to sin in Eternity.

1's vary individually by the innate potential to acknowledge and submit to God's sovereignty.

Some 1's do not even need to experience a full span of corporeal existence, thus they pass through the gateway of death into life eternal quickly.

Since they pass quickly from temporal to a-temporal life, do not become self aware to good and evil and therefore are not accountable for their sin (infants), they join God in eternal communion to have ultimate truth revealed to them and their capacity to sin stripped away.

- pax vobiscum -

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
Briefly:

Each life has a purpose and definite span.

Each life is judged on the basis of their innate potential to acknowledge and submit to the sovereignty of God for eternity.

Some have the innate potential, some do not.

The gateway from temporal existence to a-temporal existence is death. (because of A&E)

The span and quantity of life before death is determined by God and:

1. Provides God with people for His plan with whom He will have eternal communion - the Elect

2. Provides God with people for His plan from whom He will be eternally separated - the Reprobate

Both types exist to serve His purpose. Soli Deo Gloria.

2's exist to become self aware and objectively prove that Man cannot achieve his own salvation and as catalytic and interactive participants in God's plan of redemptive history.

1's exist to become self aware and objectively/temporally understand that the consequences of sin and Free Will are detrimental to them and to trust and love God as he will eventually remove the capcity to sin in Eternity.

1's vary individually by the innate potential to acknowledge and submit to God's sovereignty.

Some 1's do not even need to experience a full span of corporeal existence, thus they pass through the gateway of death into life eternal quickly.

Since they pass quickly from temporal to a-temporal life, do not become self aware to good and evil and therefore are not accountable for their sin (infants), they join God in eternal communion to have ultimate truth revealed to them and their capacity to sin stripped away.

- pax vobiscum -

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]
Scripture please for some of your foundational arguments. If you can establish the core principle by appealing to a Scriptural principle then I'll buy the argument.
 
will do - tomorrow - gotta go to bed - leading worship in the morning

FYI: My foundational Scripture is:

Philippians 2:6
who, though he (Christ) was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

...as opposed to Adam and Eve, who DID consider equality with God something to be grasped...thus initiating God's great plan to winnow the wheat from the chaff...SOLI DEO GLORIA...
 
Also - my proposition (I believe) is a natural extension of Augustinian doctrinal positions - non posse peccatore...as well as the reformed doctrinal foundation of the sovereignty of God as the center of theology.

-pax-

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
Just to clear something up:

What about the indian deep in the forrest of africa that has never heard the gospel and never will?

The last time I checked indians were living in India.

Sorry, I'm ducking out now.
 
Originally posted by LawrenceU
Just to clear something up:

What about the indian deep in the forrest of africa that has never heard the gospel and never will?

The last time I checked indians were living in India.

Sorry, I'm ducking out now.

My mistatke; I meant 'native'. What about the native deep in the forrest of africa that has never heard the gospel and never will?
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
Briefly:

Each life has a purpose and definite span.

Each life is judged on the basis of their innate potential to acknowledge and submit to the sovereignty of God for eternity.

Some have the innate potential, some do not.

The gateway from temporal existence to a-temporal existence is death. (because of A&E)

The span and quantity of life before death is determined by God and:

1. Provides God with people for His plan with whom He will have eternal communion - the Elect

2. Provides God with people for His plan from whom He will be eternally separated - the Reprobate

Both types exist to serve His purpose. Soli Deo Gloria.

2's exist to become self aware and objectively prove that Man cannot achieve his own salvation and as catalytic and interactive participants in God's plan of redemptive history.

1's exist to become self aware and objectively/temporally understand that the consequences of sin and Free Will are detrimental to them and to trust and love God as He will eventually remove their capacity to sin in Eternity.

1's vary individually by the innate potential to acknowledge and submit to God's sovereignty.

Some 1's do not even need to experience a full span of corporeal existence, thus they pass through the gateway of death into life eternal quickly.

Since they pass quickly from temporal to a-temporal life, do not become self aware to good and evil and therefore are not accountable for their sin (infants), they join God in eternal communion to have ultimate truth revealed to them and their capacity to sin stripped away.

- pax vobiscum -

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]

JD,
I will quote you:

Since they pass quickly from temporal to a-temporal life, do not become self aware to good and evil and therefore are not accountable for their sin (infants),

Think about this; your proposition is that some people, not just the infant, God grades upon a curve. That curve must be, must include those who have even been exposed to a partial gospel. For instance, as mentioned, the native who has never heard, or the person who never had the chance to hear the whole of Christs gospel message. The same system of understanding given the infant must be extended to adult situations who have the same level of neglect.

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
The same system of understanding given the infant must be extended to adult situations who have the same level of neglect.

And it is - to the adult that is mentally unable to develop the knowledge of good and evil - that is the capacity to discern moral truth and act upon it positively or negatively.

The knowledge of good and evil is our inherited curse from Adam - everyone that realizes the curse is accountable for their sin before God.

The Gospel is that Jesus Christ died to allow sinners an escape from the just judgment of God, which stretches across the boundaries of time.

Whom God chooses - the native, the infant, the mentally handicapped - is His sovereign privilege - and He is not bound by ANYTHING to do so, when, where, and why He wills.

So, net effect - God could choose to save the native in Africa - and Christ died to make it possible to satisfy God's Justice.

That said - it is Scripturally clear that God discriminates - it is also clear that it is not our job to judge who is elect...and who is not.

- pax -

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
JD,
So, although Gods word says:

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.


Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

All flesh, does not mean literally all flesh. It means those with knowledge about God, Christ and the gopsel?
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
The same system of understanding given the infant must be extended to adult situations who have the same level of neglect.

And it is - to the adult that is mentally unable to develop the knowledge of good and evil - that is the capacity to discern moral truth and act upon it positively or negatively.

The knowledge of good and evil is our inherited curse from Adam - everyone that realizes the curse is accountable for their sin before God.

The Gospel is that Jesus Christ died to allow sinners an escape from the just judgment of God, which stretches across the boundaries of time.

Whom God chooses - the native, the infant, the mentally handicapped - is His sovereign privilege - and He is not bound by ANYTHING to do so, when, where, and why He wills.

So, net effect - God could choose to save the native in Africa - and Christ died to make it possible to satisfy God's Justice.

That said - it is Scripturally clear that God discriminates - it is also clear that it is not our job to judge who is elect...and who is not.

- pax -

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]

No one is judging but you whom is elect or non elect. The reformed position is that there are some elect infants and there are some reprobate. You are saying that all infants are elect. The reformed view is the most biblically sound position. In your estimation, based upon what you believe, it would be a better program to abort all children as this would guarantee their salvation.

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by Scott Bushey]
 
All flesh, does not mean literally all flesh. It means those with knowledge about God, Christ and the gopsel?


I am not sure I follow the post before - sorry - you are posting FAST :)

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]

[Edited on 11-20-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
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