Please discuss the role of women - in the church and out

Discussion in 'Church Order' started by jules5solas, Jul 27, 2009.

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  1. jules5solas

    jules5solas Puritan Board Freshman

    I don't know where to post this - still learning the ropes! Move if necessary :)

    I only have a few minutes to ask this and then on to my kids!

    I am really trying to work through all that I learned growing up about women in and out of the church. I am no longer in the church that I grew up in but time and again I have had to work through all that was ingrained in me.

    I have trouble with all of these points in that some might have good general basis but then is taken too far.

    General things we learned that I am wanting scriptural reasons for or against:

    1) Women are never to speak in the church during public worship. (Including reading scripture, giving out a hymn, only singing)

    2) Women are never to teach men. Period. (except in Sunday School - interesting lack of consistency)

    3) Women are to be mentors to other women but only in the realm of loving your husbands, being keepers at home, and in regards to the children. Not doctrine or anything that pertains to teaching the Bible.

    4) Women are to cover their heads in corporal gatherings including Bible studies at home with men around.

    5) Women are not to teach doctrine. Parachurch organizations like BSF, Beth Moore groups etc. are not scriptural because they have one woman teaching doctrine to other women.

    6) The only males women are to teach are their own children and perhaps in a small setting like Priscilla and Aquila with Apollos.

    There's plenty more but I am so grieved writing this because of the restrictions that were placed on us over the years. We were limited to devotions, missionary ministries, serving food and cleaning the church and teaching Sunday school (they left teaching Sunday school to the women). I am interested in what your thoughts are. Just throw anything out there, I have a lot to work through!
  2. CDM

    CDM Puritan Board Junior

  3. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    Not sure exactly what you mean by this sentence. Did your church have men other than the Pastor reading Scripture during the service? This would be inappropriate for either sex to do while the pastor is leading the service. The worship service isn't a free for all for men either. There needs to be order and the one who establishes that order is the pastor (or a male who is allowed to lead the service who might be taking the pastor's place for that service). "giving out a hymn" don't really know what you mean here, but did men in your service call out hymns they wanted sung during the worship service? Again, if this is what you mean, this would be extremely disorganized and the leader really wouldn't be leading...the male congregation would be....not cool. So, really men and women in the worship service are to listen to the pastor's reading of the Scripture and his preaching without interruption (nothing wrong with saying "amen" while he preaches....our Baptist brothers enjoy doing so). Women are to be silent in church in that they are not to teach men or give them direction or be over them in any fashion. However, women are allow to sing, say the creeds and Lord's Prayer etc. To be honest, the men of our congregation don't do anything different during the service than the women except for passing the Lord's Supper and the offering plate.

    They really need to stick with "Period".... unacceptable for women to teach men in SS.


    Well, now we've got a problem with this one....there are no head coverings in my denomination (OPC) but there are some here who believe that women should cover their you won't get a definite answer on this still have my packer's hat handy though PRN. :D

    Well, Beth Moore has her problems but it's not in the fact that she teaches women.

    They may teach the Gospel to unbelieving males and females in order to spread the Gospel, but once that male takes an interest that female Gospel-spreader should direct them to a Bible believing church. They must teach their children doctrine (for instance in homeschooling etc) which is ultimately overseen by their husbands.
  4. jules5solas

    jules5solas Puritan Board Freshman

    I agree with everything you're saying. I am studying/researching to have a solid scriptural basis for this. They have their own reasons why they believe this is the proper place / role for women. I believe it's taken out of context (one verse setting boundaries or 'musts' instead of principles and 'shoulds'.)

    The church I came out of has no pastor, only elders. Worship consists of all the men participating in prayer, giving out a hymn, giving a word. It's not chaotic, it's quite calm and organized. They believe they are allowing the Holy Spirit to lead. I have different opinions on this. Also, the women cover their heads with veils. The only males the women taught were the Sunday school kids classes.

    I wish there was something that systematically laid things out concerning specific women's ministry or roles. Is there a book like that that anyone can suggest?
  5. Grillsy

    Grillsy Puritan Board Junior

    Hi Julie!
    You perhaps I can help you out with these questions.
    You should have just asked LOL :D
    Obviously, you know where I stand on the head covering issue but you would be better off have Angelica give you the full run down on the issue.
    I have some books somewhere, they're all in boxes right now, dealing with the very issues that you have raised. I will try to find them for you. Would that be helpful?
  6. jules5solas

    jules5solas Puritan Board Freshman

    So, give me a few pointers, Seminary Intern! :smug:

    I know your stance on headcovering. However, what are the biblical reasons for holding to whatever view you hold. I am trying to get more input here!

    The reason why I'm asking this is because I know someone who has asked the elders of his church to approve of him participating in BSF (Bible study fellowship) as a leader in the men's evening study. Because of the women teaching women issue, they said they cannot approve. So, it sparked a discussion.

    I have to say that all the years I've been at this church has led me to be sensitive to the topic. However, I'd like to take a good look at it since it comes up here and there.
  7. Contra Marcion

    Contra Marcion Puritan Board Freshman

    There are, of course head coverings in the OPC, my wife and daughter being two of those heads. (See Sarah's famous "Packer Hat" thread for further discussion:lol:

    Seriously, though - many OPC'ers do cover, most don't. No one makes a big deal about it either way. Obey the Scriptures as best you can, as you (and your elders) understand them.
  8. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    As far as SS goes,
    I would say it isn't inconsistent for women to teach certain classes:

    1) a women's class. Why? Titus 2:3-4

    2) a children's SS class of boys and girls. Why? Because young children are under a woman's direct authority already--their mother. So, if they are already taught the Bible and doctrine by one (and Mom SHOULD be teaching them this--not just Dad's duty), then it isn't inconsistent to be taught by one in another context.
  9. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    In the congregation, gathered for worship, women should do everything the congregation does together. But they shouldn't lead--which would be getting up and praying or reading. Those would be "leading" functions, which the rest of the people should be entering into corporately as followers.

    As for being mentors, Acts 18:26 puts Priscilla ahead of Aquila, leading me to conclude at the very least when "they" were explaining to Apollos the way more accurately, she wasn't being a wallflower.
  10. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    I won't comment much on headcoverings. There's enough material from women on this board to keep you reading for a long time, and coming to clear conclusions for yourself. Personally, my wife thinks it's proper for her to wear something in public worship. Not every reformed church or denomination takes a decided stance on this topic.

    Parachurch ministries are a strange item. They don't seem envisioned by Christ or the Apostles anywhere. They usually exist so that no church can tell the founders or present leadership what to do. Practically, it's about control, and about being able to draw financial support from the broadest possible spectrum (unconstrained by a common belief-system).

    That some have as their primary teacher a woman only suggests to me another reason for stepping outside the accountability structure of the church. :2cents:
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Puritanboard Commissioner

    You may find the search function helpful in studying past threads on Puritan Board about this topic generally. (Search function is upper right, use a key word such as "women")

    One recent thread that might be helpful on the topic of women teaching, preaching, exhorting as part of public (corporate) worship:

    Here's one on whether the Bible qualifies women for church office of Deacon:

    Here was a thread discussing a list of things women may and may not do biblically in the life of the visible church:

    Regarding "head coverings" for women:
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2009
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Puritanboard Commissioner

    I'll try and hazard an answer based on Scriptural principles, including the creation order, as best I understand it. My suggestion is you avail yourself of the many good postings on the threads about this topic, some of them very recent (see links above).

    Sin and the fall has made men not want to do their role. It has made women not want to do their role. There is a beautiful complimentary role of men and women that patterns from the creation order.

    Those who are married often come to understand this, though imperfectly, and though there is difficulty in this world because of sin, what a wonderful thing it is when a man and woman work together in a complementary way, in Christ!

    It is based on both being worthy of respect as made in the image of God. That doesn't mean God has not established authority relationships, which are really accountabilities upon which men and women will be judged.

    That should not surprise us, nor that our culture today more and more reflects confusion about this, and while promising "equality" curiously is having the effect of devaluing the dignity of both men and women. Sin, rebellion, and God giving us over to our darkened imaginations result when we do not follow God's Word. Confusion, disorder and disturbance follow (though the world, flesh and devil say "equality" peace and freedom). Big topic

    There is so much to be done in the local church through mercy and helps for both men and women, no one who is seeking God should feel limited or need to usurp authority. There are so many needs.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2009
  13. Tim

    Tim Puritan Board Graduate

    You might feel restricted now, but a prayerful petition for God to show you the places where you might Biblically serve may uncover some areas of church life that provide many challenging opportunities. There are many areas of great importance that although they are not part of formal/official teaching and leadership, are nonetheless crucial for a healthy local church body.

    As such, it's not so much of 'restriction' as it is "don't look there...look here - see how much there is to do?".

    Have you considered this verse?

    No matter whether you find yourself on the end of mentor or protege, there is enough here to challenge one greatly for years and years. Being part of these behind-the-scenes relationships is a very worthwhile part of the church body.

    I myself am not in formal ministry, but the current burden on my heart is to encourage people to engage in deep and meaningful theological discussions. And it is exceedingly difficult! This is a function that is available to men and women both.

    Blessings to you! All Christians have a role to play.

  14. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    Women are a wonderful creation of God and very important - as important as men.

    In the family they are equal but subordinate to their husbands. Children are equal but subordinate to their father and mother. This reflects the order within the Holy Triunity.

    Since the church is the family of God, this order is also reflected in the church.

    The outworking of this in society will naturally lead to certain roles for men and women, although the Bible seems to be more open on women taking leading roles in society e.g. being queens. Although I've still to read Knox's "First Blast" to see what he says.

    In Heaven some (many) women will shine with more glory than the men, because they have been more godly and fruitful on earth, and some sisters outshine their brothers already. In that sense there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, male and female in the church. There are mysteries there about what we shall yet be in Heaven, where there is no marriage or giving in marriage.

    This is a good book on the subject:-

    [ame=""]Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: Reponse to Evangelical Feminism: John Piper, Wayne Grudem: Books[/ame]
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2009
  15. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura Puritan Board Doctor

    I thought the purpose of women was to help their husband fulfill his duties in a supporting capacity.
  16. Montanablue

    Montanablue Puritan Board Doctor

    I'm hoping that this is a little tongue in cheek, because you've completely left out single women and widows.

    Furthermore, I would contend that the purpose of women is to "glorify God and enjoy him forever." How exactly we do that can be discussed at length, but to reduce the entire purpose of women to "help their husband" seems a bit simplistic.
  17. Caroline

    Caroline Puritan Board Sophomore

    In regard to women teaching men, I think there's a lot of inconsistency and not just in Sunday School.

    For example, consider this board. There are lots of women and also men. There are even pastors and elders.

    Now suppose we were discussing something theological, and, in a rare moment of insight, I said something profound. (Hey, shut up. It could happen. ;)) It's is theoretically possible that somebody here could learn something from what I said. Some pastor might even say, "Huh! I could use that as a sermon illustration!" (Ok, now I'm seriously flattering myself. But it's just to make a point). So whenever women and men are permitted to be around each other and both speak, generally men are likely to learn something from the women (and women learn from the men also, of course, but that isn't the disputed direction of education).

    I have been to churches before where women aren't allowed to say much of anything even just in conversation lest they 'teach men'. (Needless to say, I didn't fit in well there, on account of my apparent inability to be quiet). But clearly, that isn't the rule in Reformed churches. So is the rule that women just aren't allowed to teach men in a FORMAL setting?
  18. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    I was talking to my good friend, Jay, about this over a cigar the other day. He's a PCA elder and a fellow Marine that works with me so we get to talk a wide variety of topics. He just shared with me that one of their Deacons will be leaving their PCA Church because he's come to the conviction that women should be allowed to do anything a man can do.

    As I've thought about this issue, it seems to me that to debate the issue of "how much can a woman do" or "why can't a woman do whatever a man does" is sometimes pointless because the underlying issue is a misunderstanding of the nature of the Body of Christ.

    There's an implied sense (and it's probably borne out of leaders who act this way as well) that people are missing out on all the really "cool jobs" if they can't teach or lead in prayer or be a Deacon or have some other title of responsibility.

    The Scriptures, however, do not elevate a man to a position in order to reward him but in order to be of service to the broader Body of Christ. When I hear about these debates the objections are never couched on "'s a shame because Christ's Church is being spiritually impoverished because it is not allowing women to do everything men can do...." Rather, there is a certain indignation that arises out of another concern.

    Frankly, until the debate is couched in the proper terms and why Christ gifts His Church, there's really no point in getting into specifics as to what roles women fulfill toward that end.

    For my own part, I understand the desire (in my flesh) to stand out but, as a Christian, I am much more concerned that the entire Body be built up and that all of us strive and fear together and press in for the Day of salvation is Today. If I'm used of Christ and His Church toward that end then God be praised but I've also been used enough to know that there's nothing really glamorous when you're committed to the right end. There's much sorrow and grief and toil associated with it. Joy, of course, but I would never seek it out simply so I can stand out.
  19. a mere housewife

    a mere housewife Not your cup of tea

    I actually think that demeans the dignity of women -- it defines our usefulness and value in terms of 'what a man can do'.

    Caroline, I think the Biblical teaching would be not that we shouldn't learn from each other and as you say that men can't learn from women; but as Rich points out that there are different roles and gifts for those roles in the church; and a woman's role in the church isn't that of publicly (formally, as regards 'having the floor' or being elected to leadership etc) teaching or ruling men?
  20. Honor

    Honor de-cool

    I have struggled with this in the past and then I opened my eyes to the needs of the church around me... I can't preach or pass out communion but I have compassion that my husband simply doesn't... when the boys scrape a knee the come crying to me.. why? Because my husband says 'aww rub some dirt in it and then walk it off... blood (or whatever is fitting for the moment) grows hair on your chest' I give kisses and band aids and I listen patiently to what happened. I know that there are people in my church that need that same compassion... there is always a a Meals for Mothers, how many women would love a weeks worth of dinners delivered hot and to their front door at 6pm the week or so after a baby is born? that takes planing and organizing... Or what about counciling at the local pregnancy crisis center? Or reaching out to the homeless in your area? we don't like to think of them but they are there.... and they are tired hungry and hopeless... we can clothe them and feed them and tell them the love and hope of Christ. How then if you are doing all this can you think that we women are being restricted? Frankly if you are able to do all this and keep your house up and your children clean and smart, and you are still feeling restricted you need to examine your heart. because I think if you were organizing and doing all that You would welcome the break on Sunday where the men do all the "work". We give and give and give... all week long we need a time every week where we get to come and "fill up" spiritually. I hope that helps....
    and just a side note... I used to feel like you and then God opened my eyes to all the other things I could be doing and then He laid on my heart a real desire to master one thing at a time and so now I am home cleaning, cooking. homeschooling the boys, having a baby and am about to embark on raising chickiens. I want so desprately to help out but really... I'm to busyLOL
  21. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    Amen Sister.

    One of the most touching scenes in Scripture is when the widows, overcome with grief over the death of Dorcas, can probably not speak a word but simply lay the clothes that she made for them at Peter's feet. It's as if that's all the testimony of the love of a Saint needs. We focus on the title, Servant, where the accent is on the love she demonstrated to the Church.

    Peter, by the power of God, brought her back to life and in this magnificent act of compassion restores her to the Church that love her so much. Leadership and service don't always require titles or honoraria. Such things arise out of the compassion and commitment shown by men and women that love Christ. Those that fret about being "named" for such service are missing the point.

    My wife is one of the sweetest, most accepting people I've ever met. She's a hugger. She's compassionate. She notices when someone is left out. She notices when someone's countenance is downcast. She loves on our kids in ways I can't. I joy over seeing my youngest run up to her in the morning with a smile on his face so he can give Mom a hug.

    Thank God for women. Life would be lonely and despondent and incomplete without them. God did us a great service in giving them to us. Perhaps the honor they deserve is not given them (as the vessels God gave us) and the desire to be honored ends up manifesting itself in other ways....
  22. a mere housewife

    a mere housewife Not your cup of tea

    Rich, I'm out of my thanks again -- thank you.

    Julie I reread your opening post:

    It seems the church you were in was devaluing these things (at the least, some of the other points you bring up don't speak of a biblical balance in what you were taught about a woman's place), putting them off on the women as a restricted place that perhaps wasn't for whatever reason good enough for men (as with the Sunday School teaching). But God certainly does not devalue them.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2009
  23. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    I thought the purpose of women was to help their husband fulfill his duties in a supporting capacity.

    E.g. the woman of Proverbs 31, "God's Bionic Superwoman" or "Swiss Army Wife"

    I'm sure that independent-minded and yet godly woman would have had plenty of wise advice to give to her husband and other men - if that was culturally acceptable then.

    Like the woman in Proverbs 31, Lydia had her own business. She also appears to be the head of the household; at least we don't read of a husband.

    Priscilla (along with Aquila) taught Apollos the faith more accurately.

    Women have plenty to do, although they must recognise their place in home, church and society, as must men.

    If Christian women and men forget their place and roles they are being influenced by humanism, feminism, and also existentialism, which teaches that existence comes before essence. I.e. that we are in no way to allow ourselves to be defined by God or by who God made us; if we're women it doesn't matter if we want to act like men, or if we're men it doesn't matter if we want to act like women. According to atheistic existential thought we can define our essence in whatever way we wish.

    In Christ we must glorify God by acting as we were created to be, Christian men or Christian women.

    The Triune Image of God in Man is glorified when men, women and children, all equally made in God's Image, compliment each other in their different roles in family, church and society.

    The Image of the Triune God must be preserved in God's family, the Church, against all feminist encroachments. We were saved to glorify the Triune God in this way. Women preaching to mixed classes/congregations, female ministers, elders and ordained deaconesses, etc, etc, i.e. women exercising authority over men in the church, goes against this.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2009
  24. a mere housewife

    a mere housewife Not your cup of tea

    I've sometimes felt that the labels I used to think most 'generic' as in woman, wife, mother, etc are most deeply defining of who one turns out to be: I suppose that is because our individuality was created precisely to fill such roles. It's ironic that we are being false not just to God but to our own selves when we advocate throwing out all roles and 'being true to ourselves' -- defining what self we are apart from what we were created to be.
  25. jules5solas

    jules5solas Puritan Board Freshman

  26. jules5solas

    jules5solas Puritan Board Freshman

    I disagree with the generalization about the intentions of parachurch organizations. I agree that there are not explicit examples in Scripture of this sort of organization but it doesn't mean that some of Christ's mandates wouldn't develop into organizing ministries that serve the community in various ways. I do agree that they should be under the umbrella of a local assembly in order to have accountability and leadership. However, to say that they 'usually exist so that no church can tell the founders or present leadership what to do' undermines the good intentions of their origins.

    All that to say, I agree too that we need to use caution as to the function of an organization. I'll say more on this later. Thank you very much for your input!

    -----Added 7/28/2009 at 08:25:11 EST-----

    Caroline, I've often thought this. As we were not encouraged to discuss doctrine, I always thought of how impossible that is as it comes out of the overflow of my heart! How glorious are the doctrines of God and how rich and deep the scope of it! It is worth finding out! Whenever I asked any questions, I would be met with quite a short answer and then move on to talk about 'how is homeschooling going? how's your mom and dad?' etc. In other words, you shouldn't think too deeply about these things. It was very discouraging. Especially when the Lord was revealing great and troubling things in His word regarding the doctrines of grace, I could not turn to the elders for questions (esp. if my husband didn't have the answer - we were on this journey together). But anytime there was a discussion and I asked a question, it would be frowned upon.

    I see that 'teaching' is in the sense of a more formal instruction in a church setting or as someone who is in authority. It would be different than 'teach' in the sense that you shared information that was new to someone else so they 'learned'. Does that make sense?
  27. jules5solas

    jules5solas Puritan Board Freshman


    I appreciate your reply but I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to find out. My question was posted in a rush so I couldn't really elaborate and now that I re-read it, its limited explanation could make one think that I wanted more equality for women and more glamorous roles (as one person put it). That is certainly not the case. What grieved me was that women were not encouraged to really dig into the deeper doctrines in Scripture. That's where I felt limited. Questions were answered with mere 'elementary' responses where you're left thinking, 'Yes, I KNOW that but give me more!'

    Secondly, I completely agree on our primary role as women to be keepers at home! I have four needy and eager young ones who I homeschool. It is truly a full-time job! However, we can get so caught up with our own families that we don't find time to minister to others - but have time to do something that might not be quite as productive. (not saying in a judgmental way as I certainly praise you for all that you do!)

    I want to state what I think right now and then ask a few questions. Sorry this is ending up sooooo long!!! :blah:

    Here's my stance:
    * I see that God created man and woman as two very distinct creatures. As many in reformed circles are emphasizing, men and women were created to be complementarian rather than equal as the world knows it.

    * Women are not to take the role of elder, pastor, teacher over men, and arguably, deacons. We are, however, able to help our husbands (my husband is a deacon) and that often requires being the hands and feet (and secretary and organizer - and sometimes advisor!) to or for them. However, we, in no way, replace our husbands in those leadership roles.

    * Women are not to speak authoritatively on biblical doctrine where men are also congregating. I'm starting to think that we need to be cautious but not totally discount 'parachurch' organizations where the women are teaching very systematically and authoritatively other women. I think under the leadership and approval of your local church, a Bible study, for instance, in your neighborhood, might be ok - even if it mainly consists of those who don't go to your church. Any input here?

    * Women are called by God to serve the body of believers as He equips and gifts us. Women should not ask, 'What are my spiritual gifts?" Rather, the question should be, "Where is there a need and what can I do to fill it?"

    * Women have so much they can do even if they are not in public roles or church offices. In fact, public church offices are not the place for women. God has given women a special gift and capacity to be compassionate, kind, gracious, sensitive, sympathetic and patient. Often while ministering to others, women are given the opportunity to wisely explain what Scripture says concerning ______ (fill in the blank). Often, one cannot help but bring doctrine into the picture - as I often speak of the Sovereignty of God in suffering, circumstances, salvation or biblical manhood and womanhood, marriage, submission. If a woman does not study to show herself approved, she cannot teach a younger (in age or spiritual maturity) woman what Titus 2 entreats us to.

    * Women are not restricted to talking about baking, cleaning, loving our husbands, knitting and whatnot. There's nothing wrong with women discussing theology even in other settings (like when friends come over for dinner or when we have informal gatherings somewhere).

    I'll post my questions separately! This is getting too wordy!

    -----Added 7/28/2009 at 09:00:40 EST-----

    How wonderful to praise your wife (in the gates!). Thank you for your lovely description of Dorcas as well!
  28. Montanablue

    Montanablue Puritan Board Doctor

    I am going to argue a little with you here -although I do think that there is definite merit in this statement. I do think that it can be useful for us to take inventory of our spiritual gifts before we simply jump in to try to fill a need. For example, I have a friend who is not a good cook. She' s trying to learn and improve, but as of now, she is just not gifted in this area. In our church, we often have a need for people to make "mercy meals" (for the ill, new moms etc). Just because that need is there does not mean that my friend should fill it. It would actually be kind of horrible if she cooked for someone who is ill - she readily admits this! Instead, she helps our church in other ways - she sometimes organizes people to deliver meals, she helps with the church cleaning every week, and she occasionally prepares bulletins. These are all things that she can do well.

    I most definitely agree that we should look for needs that we can fill! However, I also think its important to know whether or not we are qualified to fill that need. I can cook meals for the ill, but I cannot play the piano on Sunday mornings, for instance. (My playing the piano during worship would another rather horrifying experiment). We need to be careful that we aren't barging in and doing something we shouldn't just because "I'm good at this" or "I have a gift." But neither should we assume that we should fill a need just because its there.
  29. jules5solas

    jules5solas Puritan Board Freshman

    Here is where I'd like more scriptural clarity:

    * I've gotten the comment, "Should a woman be reading so much doctrine? Enough of your Calvin-worship and your puritan-worship!' when I talk about what I'm reading, or quote something I've recently been edified with.

    * I've been told to stick with what makes me a better wife and mother -devoting myself solely to those things. By this they mean that to be through reading books on decorating, cookbooks, devotionals, Bible studies - like Beth Moore (yes, I used to do a bunch of them before I became reformed).

    I wholeheartedly agree but I believe that we need to take the whole counsel of God, that the Word was not meant only for men but also women, that the passages pertaining to women were specifically for our edification and exhortation but doesn't exclude other portions of Scripture that applies to ALL believers, men or women. What makes me a better wife and mother than to know more and more the God who alone can make me the wife and mother He created me to be?

    * What do you think of these situations? I'm not as clear in these areas:

    - Women reading Scripture out loud during worship
    - Women leading a large group of women through expository teaching through a book of the Bible - but with solid biblical foundation
    - Women meeting to discuss a Puritan classic or Grudem's systematic theology instead of a book specifically aimed at women.
    - Women joining in theological discussions where both men and women are present in an informal setting.
    - Women standing in front during worship, not leading, but standing with 3 or so others to aid in the singing especially if there's a new song.

    There's nothing in those scenarios, just thinking of several situations where I'm not one convinced one way or the other. Any thoughts?

    -----Added 7/28/2009 at 09:17:47 EST-----

    Awesome point! You are so correct! LOL! Thanks for adding that! :lol:
  30. AThornquist

    AThornquist Puritan Board Doctor

    Whoever said that is a dope.
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