I don't think that the lines are unequivocal. Consider this. The Roman Catholic Church still teaches (per Vatican II), that protestants are "Christians" and properly called "brothers." Protestant ecclesial communities also have means of salvation. They can be (!) unwitting members of the Roman Catholic Church. This is from the new document:I welcome unequivocal lines to be drawn. Let there be truth again and may God, in His wise Providence, use whatever means to that end to bring it about!
So, our "ecclesial communities" have some relationship with the Catholic Church that we don't recognize.It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.
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It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.
Vatican II was a break from those views, as I outline a bit in my prior post. The views you posted are not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches now.It's good to see the line drawn, nice and clear.
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”
Anyone read Pius the X? He wrote about smashing prots, etc.
12 Q: The many societies of persons who are baptized but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?
A: No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.link
Vat II was a break with the views I posted and the pope is now restating the old line RC view, he's re-introducing the teaching, it is RC teaching...once again.Vatican II was a break from those views, as I outline a bit in my prior post. The views you posted are not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches now.
I don't think so. It affirms the salvation of protestants, protstants as brothers and Christians, etc. This is not Trent. The Pope is affirming VII's changes.Vat II was a break with the views I posted and the pope is now restating the old line RC view, he's re-introducing the teaching, it is RC teaching...once again.
Having studied Roman Catholicism in some depth I know of no changes since Trent - at any rate. A departure would amount to a denial of infallibility - which Peter, at any rate, did not possess.Vat II was a break with the views I posted and the pope is now restating the old line RC view, he's re-introducing the teaching, it is RC teaching...once again.
Yes, it seems to me that the RC is far less Roman Catholic in the Trent sense and has become very relativistic. In America, it is essentially a mainline liberal church even more so that the CCC. Their theologians and seminaries for the most part differ little from mainline protestant seminaries. You won't see that perspective from internet apologists, but much of the official church has adopted these views. See, for example, Michael Rose, Goodbye, Good Men.According to the CCC 839-843, you don't even have to be a Christian to be saved...
The new papal document's understanding is consistent with the way I originally read Lumen Gentium and related docs, except I was not clear on "subsists," and am still not totally clear.
The VII docs still say that protestants are "Christians" and "brothers," which is good. Their failure to recognize protestant groups generally as churches is not surprising. We have a hard time ourselves determining that.