Pope John Paul II is in Hell

[Robin]

Originally posted by pastorway

posted by Janice
I'm just troubled by how quick we are to send people to hell, when only God knows the true state of a soul, when God knows who he has choosen to redeem, and when salvation can occur up to the point of death. This "can they be saved" thought pattern is prevalent in other threads that talk about dispensationalists, pentecostals, Arminians, non-denoms, home churches, etc.

Amen!

We as a group (reformed) are quick to judge and often harsh. We may be right and we may be telling the truth, but as I told our church this morning, "Don't try to witness to your Catholic friends this week by telling them the Pope is in hell." We must take this news and bring it to a personal level - that all of us will die and that there is only One Way to be prepared to face death and judgment. We can use the Pope as an example - all are sinners, the wages of sin is still death, and faith alone in Christ is still the Only Way to be saved.

If they ask outright if we believe he is in hell we have been handed the perfect opportunity to explain the gospel of grace and how God saves sinners. If they press, be honest, but not mean or harsh or judgmental. We must base what we believe on the Bible and take the time to give people the Word of God.

I think Matt's article is right on. But I also think we need to be careful that we all don't jump on the "Pope is burning in hell" bandwagon to the point that we offend people not with the gospel but with our own pontifications about who is and is not deemed by us worthy of salvation!!

This is a critical issue and offers tremendous opportunity to advance the gospel. It also affords us a fantastic opportunity to act like religious bigots and hate filled morons.

This is SUCH an important point!!!

God help us to not be the offense----the Truth is offensive enough!

R.

 

[blhowes]

Originally posted by Robin
God help us to not be the offense----the Truth is offensive enough!

This is so true, and it doesn't take much truth at that to be offensive. My mother-in-law (a catholic) got mad at my wife recently when she didn't share my mother-in-law's sorrow and concern over the pope's ailing condition. She told her she felt bad for him like she would for any other man, but nothing beyond that. She wasn't trying to be offensive, just telling the truth.

 

[lwadkins]

I think that there is a huge difference in how those discussing the subject on this board would approach it if they were speaking in a different context to an audience that was not like minded. I know that I would. I have no desire to hurt anyone and would not run up to my catholic friends and be offensive. I think we have to give that benefit of the doubt to those who are posting here, and yet the reminders of caution in how we approach the subject are valid and welcome.

 

[Poimen]

Originally posted by pastorway

posted by Janice
I'm just troubled by how quick we are to send people to hell, when only God knows the true state of a soul, when God knows who he has choosen to redeem, and when salvation can occur up to the point of death. This "can they be saved" thought pattern is prevalent in other threads that talk about dispensationalists, pentecostals, Arminians, non-denoms, home churches, etc.

Amen!

We as a group (reformed) are quick to judge and often harsh. We may be right and we may be telling the truth, but as I told our church this morning, "Don't try to witness to your Catholic friends this week by telling them the Pope is in hell." We must take this news and bring it to a personal level - that all of us will die and that there is only One Way to be prepared to face death and judgment. We can use the Pope as an example - all are sinners, the wages of sin is still death, and faith alone in Christ is still the Only Way to be saved.

If they ask outright if we believe he is in hell we have been handed the perfect opportunity to explain the gospel of grace and how God saves sinners. If they press, be honest, but not mean or harsh or judgmental. We must base what we believe on the Bible and take the time to give people the Word of God.

I think Matt's article is right on. But I also think we need to be careful that we all don't jump on the "Pope is burning in hell" bandwagon to the point that we offend people not with the gospel but with our own pontifications about who is and is not deemed by us worthy of salvation!!

This is a critical issue and offers tremendous opportunity to advance the gospel. It also affords us a fantastic opportunity to act like religious bigots and hate filled morons.

Excellent. Well said.

 

[blhowes]

In light of Pastor Way's post, I was wondering if it might not be a good idea to either modify the names of the threads, or move the threads about the pope into a 'members only' area. I think we want people visiting to react to the doctrine that's presented on the puritanboard, rather than negative comments about someone they hold dear.

Just a thought,
Bob

[Edited on 4-4-2005 by blhowes]

 

[Shane]

I think thats a good point.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Matt,

Thanks alot for this article. I am so happy to see that you are taking this unpopular (but TRUE!) stance.

Yesterday, one of our elders prayed for the pope, and praised him for his work of dividing barriers between Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism.

This caused quite the controversy in our small PCA congregation. But it has also forced me to take my voice to the session, for this drift into friendship with Catholicism is in my opinion a "hill to die on." It is the issue of the gospel itself!!

Thanks again.

Jeff are you serious ????!?!?!?!?!?

WOW.

Keep us abreast of what goes on.

 

[matthew11v25]

Originally posted by OS_X

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Matt,

Thanks alot for this article. I am so happy to see that you are taking this unpopular (but TRUE!) stance.

Yesterday, one of our elders prayed for the pope, and praised him for his work of dividing barriers between Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism.

This caused quite the controversy in our small PCA congregation. But it has also forced me to take my voice to the session, for this drift into friendship with Catholicism is in my opinion a "hill to die on." It is the issue of the gospel itself!!

Thanks again.

Jeff are you serious ????!?!?!?!?!?

WOW.

Keep us abreast of what goes on.

I am a CMA member, and the same was said in my church...but no controversy.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by OS_X

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Matt,

Thanks alot for this article. I am so happy to see that you are taking this unpopular (but TRUE!) stance.

Yesterday, one of our elders prayed for the pope, and praised him for his work of dividing barriers between Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism.

This caused quite the controversy in our small PCA congregation. But it has also forced me to take my voice to the session, for this drift into friendship with Catholicism is in my opinion a "hill to die on." It is the issue of the gospel itself!!

Thanks again.

Jeff are you serious ????!?!?!?!?!?

WOW.

Keep us abreast of what goes on.

Kerry,

I am sorry to say that it is true. I was SO ANGRY in church after hearing this prayer! We do have some good elders, and a great pastor...but some of the elders are not fit to raise children, much less be in a position of leadership.

I am in the process of writing a small declaration to have signed by as many as possible taking a CLEAR stance on Roman Catholicism and it's heretical gospel.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Stand for the truth, in love.

Matthew 10:16, "be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by webmaster
Stand for the truth, in love.

Matthew 10:16, "be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

Thanks Matthew. I would love to have some of you critique this when I am finished.

 

[LawrenceU]

I thought y'all might be interested in some responses to Matt's article that came across an email list I'm on:
Here is the first:

All I can say is WOW. Heavy reading...

For those of you unfamiliar, go visit C. Matthew McMahon's page -
APuritansMind.com .

Here is the second

Kerry and others,

"Pope John Paul II is in hell. He is burning there will all those who have denied the faith and taught a false Gospel. He is there with all those who attempted to raise their own heads above Christ."

and so on and so forth.


It is true that all who deny the faith and teach a false gospel will go to hell if they fail to repent while there is still day.

But we have no way of knowing whether God, the Sovereign Lord who determines these things, called this man in his eleventh hour. It is possible. It is possible that Hitler repented at the last instant. Isn't one of the purposes of the story the eleventh hour to teach humility to those who have born the heat of the day? Doesn't it show that our God is a gracious God and it is not impossible for him to save a man in his very last hours on earth? I know it is about the Jews being rejected and the Gentiles accepted but does it have nothing to teach individuals who are always tempted to arrogantly believe they are saved while other sinners haven't worked long enough to deserve salvation?

I have been at the bedsides of dying sinners and seen them repent at the last. Only God knows whether they are regenerated or not--man can't even hazard a guess in such instances because there are no fruits for man to judge by. But my inclination is to say, "Today, you will be with Him in paradise."

Now I have no idea if the pope repented at the last or not. Nor do I feel a need to find out. The man is dead, far past any good my prayers can do him, let alone my morbid curiosity. The man is dead and in God's capable hands. Perhaps we should just leave him there.

Surely this is a good time to denounce the evil doctrines he taught. Any time is a good time to denounce evil. But while there will a come a time when we wash our feet in the blood of Christ's enemies now is not that time. For one thing we simply do not know who his enemies are. We do not know that God did not save the pope. Praise God, the blood of Christ is strong enough to save even him. If not, there would be no hope for me. For I also have skewed doctrine and I have hated my fellow man and lied to him and cheated him and led him astray. But Christ covers that sin. For me it was in my 24th year. For others it is earlier. For still others on their death beds. For all, before the foundations of the world.

If he doesn't know, if he hasn't crawled onto God's throne and peered into the Pope's heart, Mr.. McMahon should refrain from speaking in such black and white terms about the man's final resting place. Suffice it to say he is the hands of a merciful, loving, and just God who does perfectly always. Sally

[Edited on 4-4-2005 by LawrenceU]

 

[LawrenceU]

Hah!

I just realised that Kerry on the list is Kerry Gillard here!! Small cyber-world.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

I appreciate your posting those LU.

"Think the best". I'm in that bunch. I do like to think the best. I do like to be optimistic. Messianic eschatology presses us as Christians to have a future hope. I like thinking the best.

I don't like to think biblically incorrect. Sometimes I do - or, probably, most of the time I do. I don't have things down perfect - not by a long shot. But the basics of Christianity are very important. If someone, self avowed to stand in opposition to Christ is not openly and publicly repentant, just LIKE the thief on the cross, we ought to think truthfully about what the Scriptures say.

There is only ONE death bed conversion in the bible. Just one. And it contained a public profession of the highest order, as well as the open rebuke of others reviling Christ. There was no mistaking his conversion. Jesus openly acknowledged it as a result.

We cannot say the same of the Pope. He stood for things that are of the vilest theological nature that a human being could demise, or even a serpent. We should remember that Paul (The Holy Spirit) gives us strict instructions on what to think about such men:

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Have we turned away? Or are we overly optimistic to a fault? :book:

 

[LawrenceU]

BTW, I'm in the same camp as Matt. Just for the record.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Originally posted by Robin

Originally posted by webmaster

Originally posted by Robin
Matt, ya got guts there, my boy!! Now, if only you could format a "printer friendly" version of the article. Can you? I'd love to disseminate some copies....

Robin

Try this link:

The Pope is in Hell

Thank you, Matt! May I have permission to share this with others?

In an effort to cause even more "trouble",

R.

Sure. I'm always in some form of trouble, so what the hey.

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

My conservative evangelical college has our flags at half mast for him. Should I post something at how this offends me on our school forum?

 

[Solo Christo]

No. But if you must, post something about how it offends God.

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

if I must? Think it wiser to just keep out of the controversy?

 

[turmeric]

Okay, youse guys! This dude was a major heretic I'm sure, but there might have been some COMMON grace in some of his actions. Anyway, he was hugely popular and all you're going to get is misunderstanding if you insist on proclaiming to Catholics that he's in hell (which we really don't know for a fact.)

I'm not into getting into a screaming match with some Catholic about this - he wasn't MY pope, I don't have one, and there have to be better hills to die on. BTW, this isn't a response to Matt's article, it's a response to people who fell they have to correct every evanjellyfish every time it does something. Let's choose our battles, people!

 

[lwadkins]

Its so easy just to go along to get along. Just look at all that is being said all around the world and by protestant and reformed churches. Thats what all the world is doing going along to get along. I may be wrong but I believe in speaking the truth in love, even if the truth is offensive. Maybe I'm just feeling a bit peckish but I get very weary of the attitude of standing around quietly as to not offend anyone with the truth. Meanwhile on every radio station, tv channel, street corner, water cooler, the lies are being propagated. I hear even programs that have nothing to do with Christianity proclaiming the Pope as a great christian example and leader. From everywhere all around the lies are flowing, but I need to be quiet so I don't offend. Sorry can't do it.

 

[Solo Christo]

Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus
if I must? Think it wiser to just keep out of the controversy?

Well, whether or not it is wise to post depends on what you will post. If you plan on posting about how the school has offended you, then I personally do not think you should enter the controversy. If you plan on posting how your school has offended God, then do so, but make your rebuke respectfully based upon Scripture.

 

[pastorway]

Just some random thoughts:

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.....why should we?

What harm is there in flying flags at half mast in honor a man's life when he has died? He was a man, a sinner, just like we all are. So if we cannot fly the flags at half mast for him, then for whom?

There is a difference between speaking the truth, and speaking the truth in love. The truth is offensive. While we may offend by telling the truth, we should not offend in the way we tell it.

Phillip

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

Originally posted by pastorway
Just some random thoughts:

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.....why should we?

What harm is there in flying flags at half mast in honor a man's life when he has died? He was a man, a sinner, just like we all are. So if we cannot fly the flags at half mast for him, then for whom?

There is a difference between speaking the truth, and speaking the truth in love. The truth is offensive. While we may offend by telling the truth, we should not offend in the way we tell it.

Phillip

Should a evangelical christian school do this? Men may be sinners, but not all men are antichrist's.

 

[lwadkins]

How is it that I should modify the truth as not to offend? And the pandering that is going on is only reinforcing the lies that are being told. It is precisely because it is the truth that it must be told. Yes he is a poor sinner and so am I, but it's not the poor sinner that is being eulogised, praised and exualted, it is the POPE.

 

[pastorway]

nobody is suggesting modifying the truth - I am saying quite plainly to be careful in how you tell the truth. You can say the same words in many different ways. We should be telling the truth not to prove we are right and the pope is in hell.....we should be telling the truth about the gospel out of love and concern for souls. What is our motive? Our intended goal in conversation?

So many in the Catholic church idolize the Pope. He is dead. Would you tell anyone the day after their hero died that their hero was in hell for sure? We should comfort them in their grief and POINT THEM TO Christ.

Let's be clear to, posting an article or sermon on the web (like Al Mohler and James White have done) is different than a conversation with a friend or co-worker who is a catholic. Even then, we musy do what these men have done - when we talk about the issue, STICK TO THE GOSPEL.

As for the flags at half staff - President Bush has ordered all flags flown at half staff - http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/20050402-3.html - There is nothing that violates the Scripture in following this directive is there?

Phillip

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Hey Lawrence Yes, the cyberworld - especially if you're reformed or Calvinistic - IS small.

Check my latest response on the list.

Matthew - I seem to have awoke the ire of a Catholic person on my discussion list with your essay:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RCC-Evangelical/message/20765

My response:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RCC-Evangelical/message/20766

I expect this one to generate traffic for a while. Perhaps a good thing. Pray for wisdom so that I may answer properly.

 

[Robin]

Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus
if I must? Think it wiser to just keep out of the controversy?

There are times, young-Tim, when one must decide which "hill" is best to die-on. Our Lord always defends His Own honor.



Robin

 

[lwadkins]

Phillip,

I believe that, to at least some degree, we are talking past each other here, and maybe I haven't done a good job of being clear. Let me try this.

What I don't mean:
I don't mean that I take any joy in the destruction of the wicked and particularly the pope.
I don't mean that I'm going to run out and find the first catholic man or woman and proclaim to them that their pontif is in hell
I don't mean I'm looking for an opportunity to proclaim the truth just so I can offend.
I don't mean I'm going to be as blunt and unkind as I can be when an opportunity arises to speak.
When I say truth, I don't mean "the pope is in hell."

What I do mean:
I do mean that is an unspeakable tragedy when someone dies unsaved.
I do mean by the "truth" the gospel of salvation that the Lord has commanded us to speak to make disciples of all nations.
I do mean by speaking the truth in love, to speak as kindly, lovinly and humbly as I know how, but not to avoid speaking because I am afraid for any reason including offending.
I do mean that I care not one whit whether I "am right in and of myself" only that I speak the plain truth of God's Word, which is right.

Now as to flying the flag at half mast and other observances. I am not comfortable with them being done to honor the office of POPE. I have no problem with observances meant to honor a poor miserable sinner who has died. I am not sure if the two can be seperated at this point. But as the earthly government is to govern both wheat and tares I can live with half mast although I think it reinforces the lies behind the papacy because it seem to endorse the office. I can't abide the idea of evangelical and reformed churches in any way seeming to honor the office of POPE, but have no problem with prayers for his family and friends.

 

[Jie-Huli]

Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus

Originally posted by pastorway
Just some random thoughts:

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.....why should we?

What harm is there in flying flags at half mast in honor a man's life when he has died? He was a man, a sinner, just like we all are. So if we cannot fly the flags at half mast for him, then for whom?

There is a difference between speaking the truth, and speaking the truth in love. The truth is offensive. While we may offend by telling the truth, we should not offend in the way we tell it.

Phillip

Should a evangelical christian school do this? Men may be sinners, but not all men are antichrist's.

I would say definitely not. The lowering of flags clearly has a strong symbolic meaning, signifying that the school as an institution finds the Pope is especially worthy of honour and recognition. After all, humans die across the world every day, but the school does not lower the flags for everyone. So to lower the flags for the Pope is to assign him special honour. On what grounds should a "Christian" school honour the leader of a false religious system which is a blasphemy to the name of Christ? Can you imagine that the Reformers or Puritans would have lowered flags for the passing of a Pope?

We indeed take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but neither may we ascribe honour to them.

Jie-huli