Pope John Paul II is in Hell

Discussion in 'A Puritan's Mind Updates' started by C. Matthew McMahon, Apr 3, 2005.

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  1. Robin

    Robin Puritan Board Junior

    :ditto: This is SUCH an important point!!!

    God help us to not be the offense----the Truth is offensive enough!

    R.
     
  2. blhowes

    blhowes Puritan Board Professor

    This is so true, and it doesn't take much truth at that to be offensive. My mother-in-law (a catholic) got mad at my wife recently when she didn't share my mother-in-law's sorrow and concern over the pope's ailing condition. She told her she felt bad for him like she would for any other man, but nothing beyond that. She wasn't trying to be offensive, just telling the truth.
     
  3. lwadkins

    lwadkins Puritan Board Junior

    I think that there is a huge difference in how those discussing the subject on this board would approach it if they were speaking in a different context to an audience that was not like minded. I know that I would. I have no desire to hurt anyone and would not run up to my catholic friends and be offensive. I think we have to give that benefit of the doubt to those who are posting here, and yet the reminders of caution in how we approach the subject are valid and welcome.:2cents:
     
  4. Poimen

    Poimen Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Excellent. Well said.
     
  5. blhowes

    blhowes Puritan Board Professor

    In light of Pastor Way's post, I was wondering if it might not be a good idea to either modify the names of the threads, or move the threads about the pope into a 'members only' area. I think we want people visiting to react to the doctrine that's presented on the puritanboard, rather than negative comments about someone they hold dear.

    Just a thought,
    Bob

    [Edited on 4-4-2005 by blhowes]
     
  6. Shane

    Shane Puritan Board Freshman

    I think thats a good point.:up:
     
  7. BlackCalvinist

    BlackCalvinist Puritan Board Senior

    Jeff are you serious ????!?!?!?!?!?

    WOW.

    Keep us abreast of what goes on.
     
  8. matthew11v25

    matthew11v25 Puritan Board Sophomore

    I am a CMA member, and the same was said in my church...but no controversy.
     
  9. Jeff_Bartel

    Jeff_Bartel Puritan Board Graduate

    Kerry,

    I am sorry to say that it is true. I was SO ANGRY in church after hearing this prayer! :mad: We do have some good elders, and a great pastor...but some of the elders are not fit to raise children, much less be in a position of leadership.

    I am in the process of writing a small declaration to have signed by as many as possible taking a CLEAR stance on Roman Catholicism and it's heretical gospel.
     
  10. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    Stand for the truth, in love.

    Matthew 10:16, "be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
     
  11. Jeff_Bartel

    Jeff_Bartel Puritan Board Graduate

    Thanks Matthew. I would love to have some of you critique this when I am finished.
     
  12. LawrenceU

    LawrenceU Puritan Board Doctor

    I thought y'all might be interested in some responses to Matt's article that came across an email list I'm on:
    Here is the first:
    Here is the second

    [Edited on 4-4-2005 by LawrenceU]
     
  13. LawrenceU

    LawrenceU Puritan Board Doctor

    Hah!

    I just realised that Kerry on the list is Kerry Gillard here!! Small cyber-world.
     
  14. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    I appreciate your posting those LU.

    "Think the best". I'm in that bunch. I do like to think the best. I do like to be optimistic. Messianic eschatology presses us as Christians to have a future hope. I like thinking the best.

    I don't like to think biblically incorrect. Sometimes I do - or, probably, most of the time I do. I don't have things down perfect - not by a long shot. But the basics of Christianity are very important. If someone, self avowed to stand in opposition to Christ is not openly and publicly repentant, just LIKE the thief on the cross, we ought to think truthfully about what the Scriptures say.

    There is only ONE death bed conversion in the bible. Just one. And it contained a public profession of the highest order, as well as the open rebuke of others reviling Christ. There was no mistaking his conversion. Jesus openly acknowledged it as a result.

    We cannot say the same of the Pope. He stood for things that are of the vilest theological nature that a human being could demise, or even a serpent. We should remember that Paul (The Holy Spirit) gives us strict instructions on what to think about such men:

    2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    Have we turned away? Or are we overly optimistic to a fault? :book:
     
  15. LawrenceU

    LawrenceU Puritan Board Doctor

    BTW, I'm in the same camp as Matt. Just for the record.
     
  16. C. Matthew McMahon

    C. Matthew McMahon Christian Preacher

    Sure. I'm always in some form of trouble, so what the hey.
     
  17. ABondSlaveofChristJesus

    ABondSlaveofChristJesus Puritan Board Freshman

    My conservative evangelical college has our flags at half mast for him. Should I post something at how this offends me on our school forum?
     
  18. Solo Christo

    Solo Christo Puritan Board Freshman

    No. But if you must, post something about how it offends God.
     
  19. ABondSlaveofChristJesus

    ABondSlaveofChristJesus Puritan Board Freshman

    if I must? Think it wiser to just keep out of the controversy?
     
  20. turmeric

    turmeric Megerator

    Okay, youse guys! This dude was a major heretic I'm sure, but there might have been some COMMON grace in some of his actions. Anyway, he was hugely popular and all you're going to get is misunderstanding if you insist on proclaiming to Catholics that he's in hell (which we really don't know for a fact.)

    I'm not into getting into a screaming match with some Catholic about this - he wasn't MY pope, I don't have one, and there have to be better hills to die on. BTW, this isn't a response to Matt's article, it's a response to people who fell they have to correct every evanjellyfish every time it does something. Let's choose our battles, people!:2cents:
     
  21. lwadkins

    lwadkins Puritan Board Junior

    Its so easy just to go along to get along. Just look at all that is being said all around the world and by protestant and reformed churches. Thats what all the world is doing going along to get along. I may be wrong but I believe in speaking the truth in love, even if the truth is offensive. Maybe I'm just feeling a bit peckish but I get very weary of the attitude of standing around quietly as to not offend anyone with the truth. Meanwhile on every radio station, tv channel, street corner, water cooler, the lies are being propagated. I hear even programs that have nothing to do with Christianity proclaiming the Pope as a great christian example and leader. From everywhere all around the lies are flowing, but I need to be quiet so I don't offend. Sorry can't do it.:eek:
     
  22. Solo Christo

    Solo Christo Puritan Board Freshman

    Well, whether or not it is wise to post depends on what you will post. If you plan on posting about how the school has offended you, then I personally do not think you should enter the controversy. If you plan on posting how your school has offended God, then do so, but make your rebuke respectfully based upon Scripture.
     
  23. pastorway

    pastorway Puritan Board Senior

    Just some random thoughts:

    God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.....why should we?

    What harm is there in flying flags at half mast in honor a man's life when he has died? He was a man, a sinner, just like we all are. So if we cannot fly the flags at half mast for him, then for whom?

    There is a difference between speaking the truth, and speaking the truth in love. The truth is offensive. While we may offend by telling the truth, we should not offend in the way we tell it.

    Phillip
     
  24. ABondSlaveofChristJesus

    ABondSlaveofChristJesus Puritan Board Freshman

    Should a evangelical christian school do this? Men may be sinners, but not all men are antichrist's.
     
  25. lwadkins

    lwadkins Puritan Board Junior

    How is it that I should modify the truth as not to offend? And the pandering that is going on is only reinforcing the lies that are being told. It is precisely because it is the truth that it must be told. Yes he is a poor sinner and so am I, but it's not the poor sinner that is being eulogised, praised and exualted, it is the POPE.
     
  26. pastorway

    pastorway Puritan Board Senior

    nobody is suggesting modifying the truth - I am saying quite plainly to be careful in how you tell the truth. You can say the same words in many different ways. We should be telling the truth not to prove we are right and the pope is in hell.....we should be telling the truth about the gospel out of love and concern for souls. What is our motive? Our intended goal in conversation?

    So many in the Catholic church idolize the Pope. He is dead. Would you tell anyone the day after their hero died that their hero was in hell for sure? We should comfort them in their grief and POINT THEM TO Christ.

    Let's be clear to, posting an article or sermon on the web (like Al Mohler and James White have done) is different than a conversation with a friend or co-worker who is a catholic. Even then, we musy do what these men have done - when we talk about the issue, STICK TO THE GOSPEL.

    As for the flags at half staff - President Bush has ordered all flags flown at half staff - http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/20050402-3.html - There is nothing that violates the Scripture in following this directive is there?

    Phillip
     
  27. BlackCalvinist

    BlackCalvinist Puritan Board Senior

  28. Robin

    Robin Puritan Board Junior

    There are times, young-Tim, when one must decide which "hill" is best to die-on. Our Lord always defends His Own honor.

    :detective:

    Robin
     
  29. lwadkins

    lwadkins Puritan Board Junior

    Phillip,

    I believe that, to at least some degree, we are talking past each other here, and maybe I haven't done a good job of being clear. Let me try this.

    What I don't mean:
    I don't mean that I take any joy in the destruction of the wicked and particularly the pope.
    I don't mean that I'm going to run out and find the first catholic man or woman and proclaim to them that their pontif is in hell ;)
    I don't mean I'm looking for an opportunity to proclaim the truth just so I can offend.
    I don't mean I'm going to be as blunt and unkind as I can be when an opportunity arises to speak.
    When I say truth, I don't mean "the pope is in hell."

    What I do mean:
    I do mean that is an unspeakable tragedy when someone dies unsaved.
    I do mean by the "truth" the gospel of salvation that the Lord has commanded us to speak to make disciples of all nations.
    I do mean by speaking the truth in love, to speak as kindly, lovinly and humbly as I know how, but not to avoid speaking because I am afraid for any reason including offending.
    I do mean that I care not one whit whether I "am right in and of myself" only that I speak the plain truth of God's Word, which is right.

    Now as to flying the flag at half mast and other observances. I am not comfortable with them being done to honor the office of POPE. I have no problem with observances meant to honor a poor miserable sinner who has died. I am not sure if the two can be seperated at this point. But as the earthly government is to govern both wheat and tares I can live with half mast although I think it reinforces the lies behind the papacy because it seem to endorse the office. I can't abide the idea of evangelical and reformed churches in any way seeming to honor the office of POPE, but have no problem with prayers for his family and friends.
     
  30. Jie-Huli

    Jie-Huli Puritan Board Freshman

    I would say definitely not. The lowering of flags clearly has a strong symbolic meaning, signifying that the school as an institution finds the Pope is especially worthy of honour and recognition. After all, humans die across the world every day, but the school does not lower the flags for everyone. So to lower the flags for the Pope is to assign him special honour. On what grounds should a "Christian" school honour the leader of a false religious system which is a blasphemy to the name of Christ? Can you imagine that the Reformers or Puritans would have lowered flags for the passing of a Pope?

    We indeed take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but neither may we ascribe honour to them.

    Jie-huli
     
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