Posting on the Sabbath and the 4th commandment
- Thread starter Scott Bushey
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It is very encouraging to observe such an exchange. Oh that God's people would have such a heart to leave off all things for the simple purpose of pursuing him all the day on his Sabbath!
I have long admired the FPs of Scotland for their stand on the issue (I believe the Trinitarian Bible Society also shuts down their online store on the Sabbath--Greenwich time??).
As a minister it is a particular burden of mine to positively encourage members to have appropiraite discussions after church. It is almost depressing to hear a sermon on seeking first the kingdom of God (or whatever elese) and then immediately have an entire congregation talking about everything pertaining to this world! I realise this is sometimes a slow process of sanctification in all of us and cannot be forced--but perhaps we can all be a little more disciplined than we are accustomed to in this regard. I remember a story from I. Murray's short life of John Murray where the professor tells his students on the way to church "we do not talk about such things on the Sabbath." Without being rude, perhaps this may be a helpful admonition to those we know well. Some of my happiest times in this life have been Sabbaths well spent (even though not perfectly). This makes me want to strive to keep them all better.
Looking forward to my eternal Sabbath rest...
I have long admired the FPs of Scotland for their stand on the issue (I believe the Trinitarian Bible Society also shuts down their online store on the Sabbath--Greenwich time??).
As a minister it is a particular burden of mine to positively encourage members to have appropiraite discussions after church. It is almost depressing to hear a sermon on seeking first the kingdom of God (or whatever elese) and then immediately have an entire congregation talking about everything pertaining to this world! I realise this is sometimes a slow process of sanctification in all of us and cannot be forced--but perhaps we can all be a little more disciplined than we are accustomed to in this regard. I remember a story from I. Murray's short life of John Murray where the professor tells his students on the way to church "we do not talk about such things on the Sabbath." Without being rude, perhaps this may be a helpful admonition to those we know well. Some of my happiest times in this life have been Sabbaths well spent (even though not perfectly). This makes me want to strive to keep them all better.
Looking forward to my eternal Sabbath rest...
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The poll results.........I didn't vote btw.
historyb
Puritan Board Junior
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
Judging by the poll and the discussion I'm in a minority, which makes me concerned to go back and investigate the principle upon which I think it is Sabbath breaking. I don't believe using a medium for holy purposes sanctifies the medium. The bookshop illustration above was very fitting. The bare fact that the books are Christian does not constitute the act of buying and selling an appropriate action on the Lord's day. Likewise, the fact that the Puritan board is used for Christian discussion does not constitute the use of discussion boards a sanctified action. Unless it can be shown that the medium itself is necessary in order to sanctify the Sabbath, then my conscience convicts me that it is a breaking of the Sabbath commandment to utilise the medium.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Doug,
Does this mean we are no longer responsible to keep the 4th commandment?
Does this mean we are no longer responsible to keep the 4th commandment?
Or 1, 2, 3, 5-10?
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Ok, I am going to step in and break the silent majorities silence and run the risk of ruffeling a few feathers in the process. What drew and continues to draw me to the Puritan Board is the seriousness that it's members take the Lord and His word. I was so sick of wishy-washy evangelism that I literally ran from the Church I was attending and was DONE shopping for another. I was that dejected.
I was so excited to find this place and all of you!
Now many of you are more learned than I am, many of you have studied theology for much longer, have many more books, degrees, and accolades than me as well. But I have to ask...
Where does personal conviction come into this? If after much scripture reading and prayer I still feel no conviction for posting here on Sunday's or watching the NFL on Sunday's, am I damned, stupid, not a good Christian, wrong, mislead, posessed, or all of the above?
I see some crying "legalism" toward Paul Washer sermons yet no one cries it in topics such as these. I've always believed our human attempts to please God were futile and pointless no matter how much we could spiritualize them or back them with scripture.
It seems to me that some of you enjoy posting here on Sundays and on ocasion you may even ask someone about a non-spiritual situation..on a Sunday! Some of you are convicted by this and some are not. So what's wrong with those who are convicted by it no longer posting on Sunday and those who are not continuing on as is? Do I have to be restricted so to make someone elses temptation less burdomsome?
Are you convicted by the Spirit of God for posting here or by your desire to please God with your actions? There is a difference in my opinion and it's a fairly big one. I am reminded on the man who thanked God he wasn't like the tax collector...
Sorry if this upsets anyone. I feellike there may be many who feel this way (look at the poll results!) and simply aren't saying anything because the thread is dominated by those who are in the minority of the vote.
Lastly, if it ever comes down to mods being "hindered" on the sabbath then allow me to stand up and say I'll mod on Sunday's with no problem at all.
I was so excited to find this place and all of you!
Now many of you are more learned than I am, many of you have studied theology for much longer, have many more books, degrees, and accolades than me as well. But I have to ask...
Where does personal conviction come into this? If after much scripture reading and prayer I still feel no conviction for posting here on Sunday's or watching the NFL on Sunday's, am I damned, stupid, not a good Christian, wrong, mislead, posessed, or all of the above?
I see some crying "legalism" toward Paul Washer sermons yet no one cries it in topics such as these. I've always believed our human attempts to please God were futile and pointless no matter how much we could spiritualize them or back them with scripture.
It seems to me that some of you enjoy posting here on Sundays and on ocasion you may even ask someone about a non-spiritual situation..on a Sunday! Some of you are convicted by this and some are not. So what's wrong with those who are convicted by it no longer posting on Sunday and those who are not continuing on as is? Do I have to be restricted so to make someone elses temptation less burdomsome?
Are you convicted by the Spirit of God for posting here or by your desire to please God with your actions? There is a difference in my opinion and it's a fairly big one. I am reminded on the man who thanked God he wasn't like the tax collector...
Sorry if this upsets anyone. I feellike there may be many who feel this way (look at the poll results!) and simply aren't saying anything because the thread is dominated by those who are in the minority of the vote.
Lastly, if it ever comes down to mods being "hindered" on the sabbath then allow me to stand up and say I'll mod on Sunday's with no problem at all.
MrMerlin777
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Well, and charitably said Adam.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Ok, I am going to step in and break the silent majorities silence and run the risk of ruffeling a few feathers in the process. What drew and continues to draw me to the Puritan Board is the seriousness that it's members take the Lord and His word. I was so sick of wishy-washy evangelism that I literally ran from the Church I was attending and was DONE shopping for another. I was that dejected.
I was so excited to find this place and all of you!
Now many of you are more learned than I am, many of you have studied theology for much longer, have many more books, degrees, and accolades than me as well. But I have to ask...
Where does personal conviction come into this? If after much scripture reading and prayer I still feel no conviction for posting here on Sunday's or watching the NFL on Sunday's, am I damned, stupid, not a good Christian, wrong, mislead, posessed, or all of the above?
Adam,
I don't believe it makes one a bad Christian. As I have told my wife, 'you need to keep after this, to see if what we say is true'. I suggest trying to reform those of us whom hold to a stricter sabbath.
The issue w/ Washer, from what I have heard, is that he almost places an unconventional emphasis upon a work that may seem to justify.
None the less, God has commanded it, hence, it is done.
I hear you. The board however comes under the RPCGA.
Both are important. One fuels the other.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Isaiah 58
Even though it's already been brought up a few times, I adhere increasing more to having all words, thoughts, deeds on the Sabbath Day set apart for the Lord - that is our goal. I don't believe we need to over-analyze what Isaiah is saying to us throughout time. Also, many great saints (Edwards comes to mind) made it part of his weekly living to avoid worldly chatter and "force himself" to stay on track with the happy burden of holy speech my brother spoke of in his statement on Isaiah 58:13. If the Spirit were leading a brother, they would not need blocks on sports, cigars, etc on the Lord's day. Conscience would be keeping him from it. Should the whole site be shut down? No. Even the Amish use a telephone in case of an emergency - it would be a sin not to use a set apart site like this one for even better use - holier use - on His Day. So, constrain yourself and you'll be blessed!
Even though it's already been brought up a few times, I adhere increasing more to having all words, thoughts, deeds on the Sabbath Day set apart for the Lord - that is our goal. I don't believe we need to over-analyze what Isaiah is saying to us throughout time. Also, many great saints (Edwards comes to mind) made it part of his weekly living to avoid worldly chatter and "force himself" to stay on track with the happy burden of holy speech my brother spoke of in his statement on Isaiah 58:13. If the Spirit were leading a brother, they would not need blocks on sports, cigars, etc on the Lord's day. Conscience would be keeping him from it. Should the whole site be shut down? No. Even the Amish use a telephone in case of an emergency - it would be a sin not to use a set apart site like this one for even better use - holier use - on His Day. So, constrain yourself and you'll be blessed!
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Scott, you know my passion for the D.o.G., I mean you had to call me at HOME to get me to calm down (lol) but what some hear in Washer's sermons, I hear at the Puritan Board all the time. Here's the thing though, I assume that's NOT what's meant here at the Puritan Board the same way I assume that about Washer. But often, I can read things to sound as if that's what they are saying. "Do this and work to be justified! Here see, it's in scripture!"
ABSOLUTELY, but doesn't that entail God doing it? We all have that down solid in regard to salvation but in regard to sactification we seem to miss the same point. We want to mold our society (and message board) so that we are forced to be as sancatified as we think all should be rather than allow God to work in His people as He sees fit. It's sort of like Arminian Santification, we must contribute to it in some way.
I'm going to need you to explain what that means exactly.
Let me say this though, while the evangelical church sufferes greatly from lack of leadership, submission to authority, creeds, etc. the reformed church suffers greatly under strict and burdonsome rules for every possible facit of life. I often wonder if there is a rule somewhere that may tell me I am in sin because I do not part my hair on the right side (I don't have a part at all actually). That rule may be found in the RCODHB (The reformed confessions on daily hair brushing).
Agreed! But it's important which does which. The Spirit of God moves us to act thus changing our desires. We can try to desire something all day long and that doesn't mean the Spirit will move. This reminds me of "Charismatic Tongues". They tell you to just "want it" to just open your mouth and say something and the Spirit will take over. That's not how it works. The Spirit moves and we act and change. We're not going to coax him along.
Again, I am sorry to any and all I upset with this reply. If you are disgusted by it blame it on my little experience within the reformed Church still of this date.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
AMEN!
But is this an absolute? Meaning if I watch sports or talk about sigars on a Sunday I am a weak Christian who is not lead by the Spirit? I don't believe that. I could be wrong and will admit to such if I ever come to that conclusion, but as of today the Lord, His word, and my prayers do not lead me to that conviction at all.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
No feathers ruffled here. I do want to take time to give a response to your post since you took the time to type it. I know that you post because you love the brethren.
What drew and continues to draw me to the Puritan Board is the seriousness that it's members take the Lord and His word...
I was so excited to find this place and all of you!
Where does personal conviction come into this? Refer back to page 1 my second post where I copy and pasted the WCF on Liberty of Conscience. Especially sections II. and III.
The sticky wicket that we're trying to ferret out is the balance between the two. We don't want to burden PB members with the doctrines and commandments of men but neither do we want to provide a stumbling block for anyone to practice sin and destroy Christian liberty.
You said that you have spent much time in scripture reading and prayer. Please share scripturally where you have found it ok to do various things on the Sabbath. The divines appended Isaiah 58:13 to the portion of the confession on the Sabbath about refraining from going your own way and doing your own desires. I also brought that text out and laid out the need to deal with it and the moral law in general showing that it is no longer binding on a Christian today. I have yet to see anyone deal with that text exegetically.
And as far as being "damned, stupid, not a good Christian, wrong, mislead, posessed, or all of the above" - The Lord knows your heart and mind. The only one that I would even consider (very meekly) tossing your way would be wrong - but even there I would like to see why you came to your conclusions first.
I've tried my best to show that we should approach the 4th commandment positively calling it a delight, an easy burden, and also praising that Christ has kept the law on our behalf and we should seek to serve him out of gratitude.
I don't remember anyone bringing this up as a way to earn God's favor. It's still about the 5 solas. However the same apostle who preached free grace also wrote Romans 6
Again the issue is stewardship of the owners of the board. Matt is ordained and takes his vows seriously of upholding the WCF as does his denomination. As a Christian he is called to take heed to his life and doctrine for it will save hisself and his hearers 1 Tim. 4:16. With all of that being the case it would be a loving thing for Matt to lock down certain forums rather than restricting. We should be thankful that Scott asked this question out of concern. I am.
My actions will please God as about as much as a dunghill. Actually infinitely less so because the dunghill is doing its part as creation and stinking. I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Again, why is it restricting to desire oneself and other Christians around you to spend time worshipping and meditating on the Creator and savior of your very persons? All he asks is one day out of 7.
Like many, I didn't vote either because I don't think generally posting is wrong. That's why early on - the second post I brought up the distinction about idle words...Also, I hope I wasn't dominating the thread. I too, like you, was sharing the fruits of my studies and was trying to be encouraging and edifying by sharing scripture and the confession.
Totally up to the admins on that one but I think it would be inconsistent of them if they decide that it is wrong to then let others partake in it.Lastly, if it ever comes down to mods being "hindered" on the sabbath then allow me to stand up and say I'll mod on Sunday's with no problem at all.
I hope I treated your post fairly. If I didn't at any point, please forgive me. Hopefully this will encourage further dialogue and reflection on both of our parts.
This simply means Adam, that you don't hold to the Puritan view of the Lord's day. I understand everyone is not in the "same place" or may ever be. But for a board to call itself the PuritanBoard and allow such discussions on the Lord' day (side stepping the whole question of being up or closed for the day) in my mind is, to put it midly, very inconsistent. Or maybe the PuritanBoard is Puritan like the PCA is Presbyterian? (or Puritan for that matter; need duck and cover smilie). And honestly, most PCA members are where you are. But this is the PB after all and I for one am ready for it to live up more to it's namesake, at least as far as this subject is concerned. Or wasn't Sabbatarianism the sine qua non of Puritanism?
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Benefits vs Liabilities
It would make a big differenceion the way we conducted ourselves the rest of the week on this site if this site did close down Lord's Day to the bare essentials - Prayer forum for example. Again, this would be to sanctify the site and ourselves about what the Lord's day is about. Communion with each other is great but the local body should take precedent and worldly chatter amognst us could be given a great blow.
It would make a big differenceion the way we conducted ourselves the rest of the week on this site if this site did close down Lord's Day to the bare essentials - Prayer forum for example. Again, this would be to sanctify the site and ourselves about what the Lord's day is about. Communion with each other is great but the local body should take precedent and worldly chatter amognst us could be given a great blow.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Considering that (1) it is most voters' opinion that posting on PB is not a violation of the Fourth Commandment, and (2) the widely varying opinions as to what does constitute such a violation, I agree with Augusta: (1) just leave the board alone, just as it is, (2) possibly post a banner reminding folks of edifying talk on the day, then (3) just leave it up to individual Christians to decide for themselves, in the light of Christian liberty, whether they should participate or not.
Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
For the record Richard I said that a banner is the least we could do. I actually would respect a decision to close the board on Sundays. Especially if the board owners are bound by their own conscience to do so. I lean toward the more conservative stance and defer to my elders in years and scriptural knowledge in this case.
***Just as an aside here since it was brought up...Paul Washer is in no way a legalist. He simply echos Jesus, James, and Paul when they say faith without works is dead. He is attacking this strongly because of the state of the church today and everyone and their mother thinking they are a Christian when if they truly were they would be much more sensitive to sin in their life and showing some good fruit. They live just like the world with no visible difference. Instead of examining themselves in light of scripture they compare themselves with their pagan neighbor or the carnal christians in their church.
Anyone who took the time to listen to a few of his sermons would see that he pounds the DoG all the time just as strongly if not more. Baptist or no he is willing to step up and say this stuff when most people are afraid to for the very reason that they will be called a legalist.
Puddleglum
Puritan Board Sophomore
So I'm probably jumping in on this because it's the end of the quarter and I'm tired of studying, which is a dubious motive, but anyways . . .
I don't really see how reading a book Sunday evening after coming home from church, and getting on PB when I come home and reading a couple of threads are necessarily different. In both cases, I'm reading somebody's explination of Scriptural truths.
I also don't see the fundamental difference between talking to someone in person about their struggles and telling them that I'll pray for them (and/or praying for them then), and getting on PB and reading the posts in the prayer forum, and praying for them.
Yes, the PB has potential for abuse - we could all theoretically get on, and spend Sunday afternoon talking about the football game we're watching. But as already noted - the same thing happens at church. But that doesn't mean that PB is necessarily wrong and should be gotten rid of, just like we're not going to tell people to go home right after the worship service because their conversations might degenerate into something less than edifying. (Which goodness knows I'm plenty guilty of myself).
That all said . . . I don't think that PB is equal to "live" fellowship. But there are often times on Sunday when I'm by myself, and I'll use some of that time to browse PB. If I use PB as a way of avoiding dealing "live" with other believers, or spending time reading my Bible (not that I've ever even thought of doing those! - not.), then that's wrong, I think. But a potential for abuse doesn't make something necessarily wrong.
And I think that a lot of it is a personal issue of conscience - as was also already mentioned. I could be on PB - and just on the prayer and theology forums - for all the wrong reasons. Or for all the right reasons. (And I bet that there are also wrong, not just right, reasons for avoiding PB). And since it's an issue of the heart, making rules (or locking down the forum), won't deal with it. (Though putting a banner up might be a good reminder).
However, if keeping PB open on Sunday would violate the owner's conscience, well, I think the rest of us will have to respect that.
I don't really see how reading a book Sunday evening after coming home from church, and getting on PB when I come home and reading a couple of threads are necessarily different. In both cases, I'm reading somebody's explination of Scriptural truths.
I also don't see the fundamental difference between talking to someone in person about their struggles and telling them that I'll pray for them (and/or praying for them then), and getting on PB and reading the posts in the prayer forum, and praying for them.
Yes, the PB has potential for abuse - we could all theoretically get on, and spend Sunday afternoon talking about the football game we're watching. But as already noted - the same thing happens at church. But that doesn't mean that PB is necessarily wrong and should be gotten rid of, just like we're not going to tell people to go home right after the worship service because their conversations might degenerate into something less than edifying. (Which goodness knows I'm plenty guilty of myself).
That all said . . . I don't think that PB is equal to "live" fellowship. But there are often times on Sunday when I'm by myself, and I'll use some of that time to browse PB. If I use PB as a way of avoiding dealing "live" with other believers, or spending time reading my Bible (not that I've ever even thought of doing those! - not.), then that's wrong, I think. But a potential for abuse doesn't make something necessarily wrong.
And I think that a lot of it is a personal issue of conscience - as was also already mentioned. I could be on PB - and just on the prayer and theology forums - for all the wrong reasons. Or for all the right reasons. (And I bet that there are also wrong, not just right, reasons for avoiding PB). And since it's an issue of the heart, making rules (or locking down the forum), won't deal with it. (Though putting a banner up might be a good reminder).
However, if keeping PB open on Sunday would violate the owner's conscience, well, I think the rest of us will have to respect that.
Abd_Yesua_alMasih
Puritan Board Junior
When you are celebrating the Lord's Day I am at work on a Monday morning...
jaybird0827
PuritanBoard Honor Roll
In the light of scripture and the counsel I'm getting from this thread, both sides of the question, I will choose to be content with the 6 days of the week the Lord has clearly given me for this activity - going forward. Thank you.
historyb
Puritan Board Junior
Well, I'm thinking in a strict sense yes. Now I very well could be wrong, happens sometimes.
I get it from St. Paul:
Gal 3:10-18
Gal 5:18
Hebrews 8:13
and also that law wasn't ours, but Israel's. God's law is written on our hearts and minds now:
Hebrews 10:16
Is sabbath made for men or men made for the sabbath
Of course I could be wrong.
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ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
I am not sure if I can clearly say that posting is a break of the 4th commandment; however, personally I rarely browse the boards, post or even use my computer at all on Lord's Day. For me, the computer is a daily "work" that I must use for my vocation and my pleasure, so I refrain on Lord's Day. Besides, with morning and evening service, catechism classes, and fellowship at my church, there is little 'alone time' for me to even boot up a PC.
I do think it is a break to engage in idle talk and I support the board taking steps to help the brethren avoid temptation.
I do think it is a break to engage in idle talk and I support the board taking steps to help the brethren avoid temptation.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
Well, I'm thinking in a strict sense yes. Now I very well could be wrong, happens sometimes.
I get it from St. Paul:
Gal 3:10-18
Gal 5:18
Hebrews 8:13
and also that law wasn't ours, but Israel's. God's law is written on our hearts and minds now:
Hebrews 10:16
Is sabbath made for men or men made for the sabbath
Of course I could be wrong.
Don't have time for a long post...Just like marriage, dominion, and multiplying the Sabbath is a creation ordinance. It was not instituted at Sinai. In Exodus 16 you find the Israelites gathering double manna on the day before the Sabbath so as to not have to gather on the day. So just like the thou shalt not commit adultery and all of the laws against incest, rape, adultery etc. the Sabbath in its moral aspect is still binding and everything it entails. I think a case is usually made that the Sabbath year, Jubilee year, and other festivals, new moons, and sabbaths are now done away with as they are ceremonial but I don't think the 1 day in 7 - the weekly Sabbath and its observance has been.
Is marriage made for man or man for marriage. Either way there are still things we are to refrain from.
The law is now written on our hearts because from the heart comes the actions of man. That actually should be encouraging to us that we can better keep the Sabbath than our brothers in the old covenant.
staythecourse
Puritan Board Junior
Purification of the site on Lord's Day
If Puritan Board were Jerusalem and Nehemiah were at the gate on the Lord's Day, what would he refuse to permit on God's Day?
These jump out glaringly:
"Let's do business"
"Entertainment and Humor"
and these less so:
"Politics and Gov't"
"Puritan Pub"
"Computers and Technology"
"Iron Chef"
What would he clearly permit? If the site/Jerusalem were set aside for God alone and His worship:
"Pray ye like this"
The Theological Forums
Reformed Chat Room even for godly speech.
Others that are strictly for Christian edification/education
We could loosen the reins the rest of the week for all the subjects. We have to be accountable to one another.
To my brother from New Zealand, perhaps some hi-tech tag could identify you as being in a particular time zone. This would allow you access to all sites unless it was your Lord's Day.
Again, this is not to burden us but to tighten up shabby living on the Lord's Day. I am sure it would help us be sanctified the rest of the week. The tenor of the site would change, too.
If Puritan Board were Jerusalem and Nehemiah were at the gate on the Lord's Day, what would he refuse to permit on God's Day?
These jump out glaringly:
"Let's do business"
"Entertainment and Humor"
and these less so:
"Politics and Gov't"
"Puritan Pub"
"Computers and Technology"
"Iron Chef"
What would he clearly permit? If the site/Jerusalem were set aside for God alone and His worship:
"Pray ye like this"
The Theological Forums
Reformed Chat Room even for godly speech.
Others that are strictly for Christian edification/education
We could loosen the reins the rest of the week for all the subjects. We have to be accountable to one another.
To my brother from New Zealand, perhaps some hi-tech tag could identify you as being in a particular time zone. This would allow you access to all sites unless it was your Lord's Day.
Again, this is not to burden us but to tighten up shabby living on the Lord's Day. I am sure it would help us be sanctified the rest of the week. The tenor of the site would change, too.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
What do you think Paul meant when he used the term, "rely"?
The above is a contrast of the C of W and the C of G.
If you are led by the Spirit, you have been justified and do not look to the law to justify.
.
Again, a contrast between the old covenant (C of W) and the new covenant (C of G). No conflict here in that Paul is assuredly not telling these people to not keep to the law, but that the law doesn't justify.
Can you expound upon this statement?
When did the 'now' occur?
Quote:
Was the above not the case for Abraham?
- Status
