Postmillennialism?
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N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
I always start with the Bible... LOL
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Read some of the stuff in the eschatology section of the PB by postmils like myself and others. You'll soon identify the postmils.
Lorraine Boettner's "The Millennium" is a good survey.
This apparently - and sometimes genuinely - confusing area of study can be partially simplified if you view it as a process of elimination between dispensational premil, historical premil, amil and postmil. It quickly boils down to a choice between amil and postmil or a combination thereof.
Iain Murray's "The Puritan Hope" (BoT) shows how many of the Reformed and Puritans were postmil, and how John Nelson Darby's dispensationalism (circa 1830) brought unwanted confusion and sometimes stupidity to this whole area of study.
Patrick Fairbairn's "The Interpretation of Prophecy" (BoT) is very good and sane if you can get round to reading it.
Keith Mathison's "Postmillennialism" (PandR) is one of the latest studies on the subject.
Lorraine Boettner's "The Millennium" is a good survey.
This apparently - and sometimes genuinely - confusing area of study can be partially simplified if you view it as a process of elimination between dispensational premil, historical premil, amil and postmil. It quickly boils down to a choice between amil and postmil or a combination thereof.
Iain Murray's "The Puritan Hope" (BoT) shows how many of the Reformed and Puritans were postmil, and how John Nelson Darby's dispensationalism (circa 1830) brought unwanted confusion and sometimes stupidity to this whole area of study.
Patrick Fairbairn's "The Interpretation of Prophecy" (BoT) is very good and sane if you can get round to reading it.
Keith Mathison's "Postmillennialism" (PandR) is one of the latest studies on the subject.
Scot
Puritan Board Sophomore
Check these sermons out:
The Recovery of Hope 1 CR1012 - SermonAudio.com
The Recovery of Hope 2 CR1013 - SermonAudio.com
The Recovery of Hope 3 CR1014 - SermonAudio.com
Some on postmil & preterism here:
Rev. Ken Gentry Sermons - SermonAudio.com
The Recovery of Hope 1 CR1012 - SermonAudio.com
The Recovery of Hope 2 CR1013 - SermonAudio.com
The Recovery of Hope 3 CR1014 - SermonAudio.com
Some on postmil & preterism here:
Rev. Ken Gentry Sermons - SermonAudio.com
Josh Williamson
Puritan Board Freshman
Anything by Gentry and DeMar. I also enjoyed Keith Mathison's "Postmillennialism"
Reformed Thomist
Puritan Board Sophomore
Yup, Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope by Keith Mathison (P & R Publishing) is what you're looking for.
Another great P & R title: An Eschatology of Victory by J. Marcellus Kik (with an introduction by R.J. Rushdoony).
Another great P & R title: An Eschatology of Victory by J. Marcellus Kik (with an introduction by R.J. Rushdoony).
AlexanderHenderson1647
Puritan Board Freshman
I would recommend BB Warfield on the subject. I identify with his position moreso that he chiliastic position, that is to say he identifies the entire interadvental period as the millennium in contrast to those who recognize a distinct period toward the end of the interadvental period as the millennium. See "The Millennium and the Apocalypse" which can be accessed here
I have seen several others mentioned above that I like as well.
For historical reference see Savoy Declaration used by the Puritan Congregationalists:
Chapter 26
Of The Church
"5. As the Lord in his care and love towards his Church, hath in his infinite wise providence exercised it with great variety in all ages, for the good of them that love him, and his own glory; so according to his promise, we expect that in the latter days, antichrist being destroyed, the Jews called, and the adversaries of the kingdom of his dear Son broken, the churches of Christ being enlarged, and edified through a free and plentiful communication of light and grace, shall enjoy in this world a more quiet, peaceable and glorious condition than they have enjoyed."
and Westminster Larger:
"Q. 191. What do we pray for in the second petition?
A. In the second petition, (which is, Thy kingdom come,) acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted that Christ, would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends."
I have seen several others mentioned above that I like as well.
For historical reference see Savoy Declaration used by the Puritan Congregationalists:
Chapter 26
Of The Church
"5. As the Lord in his care and love towards his Church, hath in his infinite wise providence exercised it with great variety in all ages, for the good of them that love him, and his own glory; so according to his promise, we expect that in the latter days, antichrist being destroyed, the Jews called, and the adversaries of the kingdom of his dear Son broken, the churches of Christ being enlarged, and edified through a free and plentiful communication of light and grace, shall enjoy in this world a more quiet, peaceable and glorious condition than they have enjoyed."
and Westminster Larger:
"Q. 191. What do we pray for in the second petition?
A. In the second petition, (which is, Thy kingdom come,) acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel-officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted that Christ, would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends."
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Potmils aren't necessarily preterist. Historically some have been historicist or idealist.
I see a lot of truth in preterism, but I wouldn't push it as far as Gentry does, who puts everything from Revelation Chapter 5 to Revelation 19 into the first century, and says that Babylon represents first century Jerusalem.
Bahnsen on the other hand opens out the squeezebox of Revelation 5 to 19 and says that Babylon was Rome i.e. the Roman Empire.
Personally, I think it may be the case that Babylon is the apostate Church, including the Church of Rome. That makes the fall of Babylon and the destruction of the Beast (persecutory secular and pagan government) and False Prophet (antichristian forces) (chapter 19) future to us.
I believe the seals and the trumpets may be to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century, and that the Beast is represented by Nero/666 in the first century. The False Prophet is represented by antichristian forces of compromise in the first century. But they both outlive their first century representative manifestations and are with us still.
Today the Beast (Beast from the Sea) is revealed in e.g. governments that persecute Christians around the world. The False Prophet (Beast from the Earth) is revealed in Antichrist and antichrists e.g. the Papacy, Liberal Theology, JWs, Mormons, etc.
The Woman (Revelation 12:6), the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2) turns into the apostate Whore, Babylon, (Rev 17:5) through the twin pressures of persecution (Beast 1) and false teaching (Beast 2).
These things will be brought to an end in history by Christ through His dissemination and illumination of His Word, the effusion of His Spirit, the faithful testimony of His Church and the exercise of His Providence.
I see a lot of truth in preterism, but I wouldn't push it as far as Gentry does, who puts everything from Revelation Chapter 5 to Revelation 19 into the first century, and says that Babylon represents first century Jerusalem.
Bahnsen on the other hand opens out the squeezebox of Revelation 5 to 19 and says that Babylon was Rome i.e. the Roman Empire.
Personally, I think it may be the case that Babylon is the apostate Church, including the Church of Rome. That makes the fall of Babylon and the destruction of the Beast (persecutory secular and pagan government) and False Prophet (antichristian forces) (chapter 19) future to us.
I believe the seals and the trumpets may be to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century, and that the Beast is represented by Nero/666 in the first century. The False Prophet is represented by antichristian forces of compromise in the first century. But they both outlive their first century representative manifestations and are with us still.
Today the Beast (Beast from the Sea) is revealed in e.g. governments that persecute Christians around the world. The False Prophet (Beast from the Earth) is revealed in Antichrist and antichrists e.g. the Papacy, Liberal Theology, JWs, Mormons, etc.
The Woman (Revelation 12:6), the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2) turns into the apostate Whore, Babylon, (Rev 17:5) through the twin pressures of persecution (Beast 1) and false teaching (Beast 2).
These things will be brought to an end in history by Christ through His dissemination and illumination of His Word, the effusion of His Spirit, the faithful testimony of His Church and the exercise of His Providence.
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Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Also "Thine is the Kingdom" (edited by Mathison and Gentry) answers the amil argument from suffering being necessary for Christians.
Postmils don't say that suffering and death will ever be entirely eliminated for Christians in this world.
Many of the amils who say that war is necessary for Christian suffering in this age - and therefore will never be eliminated in history - have ironically never experienced war. Many amils who say that physical persecution by the State is necessary for Christian suffering in this age - and therefore will never be eliminated in history - have never experienced physical persecution by the State.
The postmil lifestyle is being enjoyed in measure by many amils already. Sadly many of our brothers in this world are not enjoying much of the postmil lifestyle.
Postmils don't say that suffering and death will ever be entirely eliminated for Christians in this world.
Many of the amils who say that war is necessary for Christian suffering in this age - and therefore will never be eliminated in history - have ironically never experienced war. Many amils who say that physical persecution by the State is necessary for Christian suffering in this age - and therefore will never be eliminated in history - have never experienced physical persecution by the State.
The postmil lifestyle is being enjoyed in measure by many amils already. Sadly many of our brothers in this world are not enjoying much of the postmil lifestyle.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
There have been some thorough and passionate threads on this topic, including polls (you may find helpful the search function, upper right to find these).
It's interesting that amillennialism was considered a form of postmillennialism historically, so around the time of the Confessions these terms were not proposed as alternate competing views. Then, even classical premillenialism was not a point of significant debate. Modern dispensational premillennialism did not exist. Amill was not even a term used then because it, with its postmillennial core was the only "game in town." There were some variances within that view. That's why the Westminster Confession does not address millennialism in great detail.
Also, it's safe to say, what is now called "preterism" is to be avoided- it is serious error. Yes, some aspects of what it is are biblical, but the term and its implications have taken on serious error in our time. Stay away from that.
It's interesting that amillennialism was considered a form of postmillennialism historically, so around the time of the Confessions these terms were not proposed as alternate competing views. Then, even classical premillenialism was not a point of significant debate. Modern dispensational premillennialism did not exist. Amill was not even a term used then because it, with its postmillennial core was the only "game in town." There were some variances within that view. That's why the Westminster Confession does not address millennialism in great detail.
Also, it's safe to say, what is now called "preterism" is to be avoided- it is serious error. Yes, some aspects of what it is are biblical, but the term and its implications have taken on serious error in our time. Stay away from that.
Many who go by the name don't actually maintain all its tenets. Oswald Allis carefully analysed the problem in Prophecy and the Church, pp. 4, 5:
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Yes, see youtube Mark of Beast for a good primer
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
I don't know if historicist or idealist views (always) wholly avoid preterism, although it's probably possible to be a futurist (usually dispensational premil) and avoid it.
Many commentators who wouldn't call themselves preterist in any sense, would see references to the destruction of Jerusalem in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 and parallels).
Preterism has been marred in recent years by fanatical heretics who call themselves preterists, full preterists, or consistent preterists - and others call Hymeneans or hyper-preterists, who say that Christ's Second Advent, the Resurrection and the Last judgment were fulfilled in AD 70.
I do see the destruction of Jerusalem as well as the Second Advent in Matthew 24 and 25. I also see the destruction of Jerusalem among other things in Revelation 5-11. Also Nero is the first century representative of the Beast in Revelation 13.
Some people get carried away with preterism and see it everywhere. Even the orthodox Gentry puts all Revelation 5-19 into the first century. Futurists (dispensational premil) put all of Revelation 5-19 into the future. Revelation 5-19 is squeezed towards the future and then towards the past in this hermeneutical squeeze box.
We have always to take our views on parts and aspects of Revelation with a large pinch of salt, as it is a difficult book, God clearly meant many things to be somewhat veiled by giving it in symbol rather than plain history, and there's always more to learn.
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