Powerball = $340 Million - Play or Not Play?

[crhoades]

First some math:
$340 Million X 1/2 for Cash Option = $170 Million X 1/2 for taxes = $85 Million at the end of the day.

10% Tithe off of net is 8.5 Million. Off of Gross is $34 Million

Gambling?
Entertainment?
Adiaphora?
Greed?
Giving tons to charity?

Where does everyone fall and why? What do your/others' answers reveal about our hearts?

 

[crhoades]

Food for thought - WLC
Q142: What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
A142: The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,[1] are, theft,[2] robbery,[3] man-stealing,[4] and receiving anything that is stolen;[5] fraudulent dealing,[6] false weights and measures,[7] removing land marks,[8] injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man,[9] or in matters of trust;[10] oppression,[11] extortion,[12] usury,[13] bribery,[14] vexatious lawsuits,[15] unjust enclosures and depopulations;[16] engrossing commodities to enhance the price;[17] unlawful callings,[18] and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves;[19] covetousness;[20] inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods;[21] distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them;[22] envying at the prosperity of others;[23] as likewise idleness,[24] prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate,[25] and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God hath given us.[26]

1. James 2:15-16; I John 3:17
2. Eph. 4:28; Psa. 42:10
3. Psa. 62:10
4. I Tim. 1:10
5. Prov. 29:24; Psa. 1:18
6. I Thess. 4:6
7. Prov. 11:1; 20:10
8. Deut. 19:14; Prov. 23:10
9. Amos 8:5; Psa. 37:21
10. Luke 16:10-12
11. Ezek. 22:29; Lev. 25:17
12. Matt. 23:25; Ezek. 22:12
13. Psa. 15:5
14. Job 15:34
15. I Cor. 6:6-8; Prov. 3:29-30
16. Isa. 5:8; Micah 2:2
17. Prov. 11:26
18. Acts 19:19, 24-25
19. Job. 20:19; James 5:4; Prov. 21:6
20. Luke 12:15
21. I Tim. 6:5; Col. 3:2; Prov. 23:5; Psa. 42:10
22. Matt. 6:25, 31, 34, Eccl. 5:12
23. Psa. 37:1, 7; 73:3
24. II Thess. 3:11; Prov. 18:9
25. Prov. 21:17; 23:20-21; 28:19

26. Eccl. 4:8; 6:2; I Tim. 5:8

 

[SolaScriptura]

If I had a spare dollar I'd PLAY, PLAY, PLAY!!!!
And if I won???
I'd think about how I'd spend all that loot!

 

[wsw201]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura
If I had a spare dollar I'd PLAY, PLAY, PLAY!!!!
And if I won???
I'd think about how I'd spend all that loot!

 

[rgrove]

We don't play any government sanctioned gambling. It increases gambling addictions so they can get around the issue of taxes and spending. Our beloved governor here in Oregon has responded to fiscal difficulties (ie, he can't pay for everything) by making the gambling laws more liberal. It's an evil system that enslaves countless minds to the sin of coveteousness. I'm not saying it does in all people, and perhaps not in the people on the board, but I've seen it in many of my unsaved coworkers and family members. My grandfather lusted after the wealth of a lottery win for most all of his later years. It was sad. Why bother with anything that can potentially lead us into a violation of God's moral law through coveteousness?

 

[Joseph Ringling]

Originally posted by rgrove
We don't play any government sanctioned gambling. It increases gambling addictions so they can get around the issue of taxes and spending. Our beloved governor here in Oregon has responded to fiscal difficulties (ie, he can't pay for everything) by making the gambling laws more liberal. It's an evil system that enslaves countless minds to the sin of coveteousness. I'm not saying it does in all people, and perhaps not in the people on the board, but I've seen it in many of my unsaved coworkers and family members. My grandfather lusted after the wealth of a lottery win for most all of his later years. It was sad. Why bother with anything that can potentially lead us into a violation of God's moral law through coveteousness?

 

[VictorBravo]

I don't know anything about PowerBall. Is a ticket $1 or is it more?

In any event, the odds are very poor, around 120 million to one. Statistically, you are more likely to get killed in a car accident on the way to the ticket dealer, so be careful out there.

Of course, I'm not including God's providence in the equation, but I would question where the ticket sales go. Do they go into some program that encourages greed or sin? If so, I wouldn't want to give them any money.

Vic

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

The Powerball lottery is gambling. To participate is a sin against the third and eighth commandments, and, likely, the tenth. It is also, moreover, frankly, a tax on supidity.

 

[Average Joey]

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The Powerball lottery is gambling. To participate is a sin against the third and eighth commandments, and, likely, the tenth. It is also, moreover, frankly, a tax on supidity.

I agree.It can be such a huge easily accessed sin though.I would not run out to buy a ticket,but knowing myself such as I do,if I am out somewhere where I could buy.....

Stay away from places selling it.

 

[ChristianTrader]

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The Powerball lottery is gambling. To participate is a sin against the third and eighth commandments, and, likely, the tenth. It is also, moreover, frankly, a tax on supidity.

I would ask to see it spelled out on how it sin against two or perhaps three different comammandments.

And as far as a tax on stupidity, it cant be any worse than a tax on excess productivity.

 

[Peter]

No.

National Lottery, position paper of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland

 

[Steve Owen]

It was Dr. Johnson who said a State lottery was a tax on fools.

I would instance Gen 3:19, Josh 7:21, Isaiah 2:20-21 and especially 1Tim 6:6-11.
Gambling is basically a form of covetousness, which is idolatry (Eph 5:5-6 ).

Martin

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
It was Dr. Johnson who said a State lottery was a tax on fools.

Would that be Dr. Samuel Johnson? Do you know the source precisely? Just curious. I also saw this older similar quote:

"A lottery is a taxation,
Upon all the fools in Creation;
And Heav'n be prais'd,
It is easily rais'd,
Credulity's always in fashion;
For, folly's a fund,
Will never lose ground,
While fools are so rife in the Nation."

A song from "The Lottery", a farce by

Henry Fielding (1707-54)

[Edited on 10-19-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[pastorway]

Hear Al Mohler on "A Christian View of the Lottery" here:

http://www.albertmohler.com/radio_play.php?cdate=2005-10-17

 

[Steve Owen]

Would that be Dr. Samuel Johnson? Do you know the source precisely? Just curious.

1. Yes.
2. No. Sorry! I heard it quoted some years ago when a National Lottery was re-introduced in Britain.

When the so-called 'Clapham Sect' had brought about the abolition of slavery in the British Empire in 1833, they cast around for another great social evil that they could get rid of. They settled on the National Lottery.

Martin

 

[ChristianTrader]

Originally posted by pastorway
Hear Al Mohler on "A Christian View of the Lottery" here:

http://www.albertmohler.com/radio_play.php?cdate=2005-10-17

Thanks for the link.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by ChristianTrader

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
The Powerball lottery is gambling. To participate is a sin against the third and eighth commandments, and, likely, the tenth. It is also, moreover, frankly, a tax on supidity.

I would ask to see it spelled out on how it sin against two or perhaps three different comammandments.

With regard to the third commandment, lotteries for financial gain are a vain use of lots and hence profane the name of God. It exalts the god of chance at the expense of honoring the providence of God. See this article.

Games of hazard are those in which hazard [ie., not skill but providential determination apart from human effort, commonly called luck, chance, etc.] are those in which hazard only bears the sway and orders the game, and not wit; wherein also there is, as we say, chance, yea mere chance in regard of us. Now games that are of mere hazard, by the consent of godly divines are unlawful. The reasons are these: First, games of mere hazard are indeed lots, and the use of a lot is an act of religion, in which we refer unto God the determination of things of moment that can no other way be determined...Secondly, such games are not recreations, but another matter of stirring up troublesome passions, as fear, sorrow...Thirdly, covetousness is commonly the ground of them all. Whereupon it is that men usually play for money. And for these causes such plays...are unlawful.

-- William Perkins, cited in A Puritan Golden Treasury by I.D.E. Thomas

With regard to the eighth commandment, we are called to contentment and wise stewardship of our possessions. We are also forbidden from seeking to gain something apart from lawful means (work or inheritance/gift) at the expense of others. Wasteful gaming is specifically prohibited as noted already.

R.L. Dabney's Systematic Theology on the eighth commandment:

Special Sins and Duties Under It.

This commandment requires us, as to our own worldly estate, to practice such industry as will provide for ourselves and those dependent on us a decent subsistence to eschew idleness, which is a species of robbery practiced on the common hive by the drone; to avoid prodigality; and to appropriate our own goods in due proportion to their proper uses. The commandment, as it applies to our neighbor´s wealth, forbids robbery, or forcible taking, theft, or taking by stealth, all swindling and getting of property by false presence; forestalling and regrating in times of scarcity; wastefulness, tending to the greed for other´s wealth, extortion, embezzlement of public wealth, false measures and weights, contracting debts beyond the known ability to pay, eating usury, gambling, infidelity in working for wages, or in the quality of things manufactured for sale, availing oneself of legal advantages for evading obligations morally binding.

With regard to the tenth commandment, I think it is evident to all that covetousness is a primary motive for gambling.

Lotteries build up the coffers of public schools and statist government programs at the expense of the poor and foolish. Winners get the experience of becoming rich overnight and thrust into temptation at the expense of all who bet and lost, losers waste money, and players rely on fortune to advance themselves rather than using lawful means. Lotteries are a form of gambling, gambling is violates God's law in multiple ways, and often leads to breaking other commandments besides those I have mentioned, and has always been considered a vice. It is particularly heinous because it is seductive and leads to so many various violations of the moral law.


[Edited on 10-20-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[ReformedWretch]

Do any of you view the stock market as sin?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I would say the Stock Market, as a place of business, is lawful. And just like many lawful things, it is capable of abuse. Many people are indeed "betting" in the stock market, and neither investing nor "keeping people honest," a function of traditional market "bears."

In today's markets of "play money", highly leveraged "games" and "plays", non-enforcement of contracts and obligations, and government corruption and complicity, I think it is even more dangerous to get into the "action".

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

the stock market can be employed as a form of gambling, but properly used it is investing one's resources into a company and enabling it to build capital for the benefit of investors, which is actually good stewardship. The fact that there is risk involved does not automatically make it gambling. Risk is involved in all entrepreneurial endeavors. But as with all things motive and methods need to be examined to see if they are truly in accord with the eighth commandment.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Day trading?

 

[alwaysreforming]

I appreciate the admonition by so many of my godly brethren here about the dangers of gambling and its proximity to sin.

I, on the other hand, might buy a lottery ticket about 4 times per year, and its just a dollar quick pick. In fact, I've never even checked the numbers to see if I've won personally. If I still have the ticket in my possession and happen to remember, I'll have the clerk run it through the machine while I'm paying and they tell me that its not a winner and throw it in the trash.

I try to guard against the covetousness that can be kindled by this game. In fact, I refused to even look at the initial post that showed how much money one would receive if winning; I'm sure if I got wind of it my heart would be inflamed with monetary lust!

I realize the potentiality of this form of gambling for causing harm to people, and I won't try to justify my participation, however limited. For those of you who say that its sin and should be shunned by Christians, I recognize the truth therein but am probably just a little too callous to really get passionate about it.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Play! Play! Play! :bigsmile:

 

[ChristianTrader]

Originally posted by houseparent
Day trading?

As some people have said previously in this thread, basically anything can be abused and become sinful, but I dont see anything inherently wrong with daytrading. The only avenue where one could say that it is, is if they somehow believe that a certain amount of "sweat" has to be expended in order for money to be morally gained. And I dont see how in the world that stance could be defended.

 

[ChristianTrader]

Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
I would say the Stock Market, as a place of business, is lawful. And just like many lawful things, it is capable of abuse. Many people are indeed "betting" in the stock market, and neither investing nor "keeping people honest," a function of traditional market "bears."

How do you differentiate between betting and risk involved in any transaction. Also how are you defining investing, in this previous paragraph.

In today's markets of "play money", highly leveraged "games" and "plays", non-enforcement of contracts and obligations, and government corruption and complicity, I think it is even more dangerous to get into the "action".

What is wrong with "highly leveraged games and plays"? I do see non-enforcement of contracts and obligations as a problem but unrelated to the leveraging.

 

[Craig]

There is no skill or productivity involved with gambling. While the stock market can be sinful, it actually requires someone with resources available (usually aquired by saving) and making sound decisions based on advice.

Who do you get counsel from when you pick your lucky numbers? It lends itself to addiction. The underlying assumption you approach it with is that circumstance dictates your lot in life...not God. From start to finish it's not good. Sure, sometimes it's only a dollar...I don't know if that makes it alright. For boss's day, one of my employees gave me and the other manager scratch off lotto tickets...she was so excited about it. I scratched for the first time...I lost. But today, another employee won $7. You know what, that's not much money, which made it all the more tempting. That is when I realized this whole thing is driven by addiction.

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by ChristianTrader

Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
I would say the Stock Market, as a place of business, is lawful. And just like many lawful things, it is capable of abuse. Many people are indeed "betting" in the stock market, and neither investing nor "keeping people honest," a function of traditional market "bears."

How do you differentiate between betting and risk involved in any transaction. Also how are you defining investing, in this previous paragraph

I think the difference is in the underlying purpose and substance. Gambling is basically solely a desire to get something from nothing. Nothing is being produced, and there is never any "gain" (in the ultimate sense) of anything. Not so with the stock market and transactions, because in addition to the funds being invested, there is work involved. I think of it this way: gambling (including the lottery) is basically a whole bunch people putting in an amount of money, and then hoping that "luck " (or worse, yet, a presumption of Providence) will allow that static amount of funds to make a profit for them. Someone "wins," but in order for someone to "win" someone else must lose. It is a zero sum proposition. In fact, gambling is inherently a collective wasteful activity, because a certain percentage also must of necessity go to the "house" which produces nothing - it only provides the venue for the gambling to take place.

(As an aside, any argument that the "house" provides work for people - dealers, etc - is inherently flawed, otherwise prositution would be a good thing because it provides work.)

Investment, on the other hand, does produce something. Not always, for there is no assurance in our sinful world that our labor will always be fruitful - people steal, are lazy, make mistakes, there is death, natural disaster, etc. But the underlying substance of all investment, including day trading, is that funds are being provided by one person to another person (often a corporation) in order to provide resources for the successful production of additional wealth.

For my part, that is a huge difference.

 

[ChristianTrader]

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by ChristianTrader

Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
I would say the Stock Market, as a place of business, is lawful. And just like many lawful things, it is capable of abuse. Many people are indeed "betting" in the stock market, and neither investing nor "keeping people honest," a function of traditional market "bears."

How do you differentiate between betting and risk involved in any transaction. Also how are you defining investing, in this previous paragraph

I think the difference is in the underlying purpose and substance. Gambling is basically solely a desire to get something from nothing.

Just for arguments sake, lets say that we are talking sports gambling. So it is not as simple as a role of the dice etc. Actually "skill" can/is involved. Also for the sake of argument, I will argue that it is just another form of entertainment, with the added possibility of money being returned or increased.

Nothing is being produced, and there is never any "gain" (in the ultimate sense) of anything.

Entertainment also normally does not "produce anything" more than a few excited feelings and some memories. (For example, a broadway show, a football game etc.)

Also gain is a very ambigious word

Not so with the stock market and transactions, because in addition to the funds being invested, there is work involved.

Try to attempt to win at sports betting, it is not falling off a log (as an aside, I have never bet on any sports, so I dont want to hear about me trying to defend my sinful passions)

I think of it this way: gambling (including the lottery) is basically a whole bunch people putting in an amount of money, and then hoping that "luck " (or worse, yet, a presumption of Providence) will allow that static amount of funds to make a profit for them.

Not all forms of gambling is just playing random chance. For example, I was in Vegas last weekend. I considered putting money on the Notre Dame vs. USC game. I had seen them both play and knew that USC was not 13 points better than ND in South Bend with tall grass. Now if I had made that bet, there would have been a measure of chance that I would be wrong, but it definitely would have been no worse than the average person investing in the stock market that some new biotech would get their drug past the FDA and onto the market.

Someone "wins," but in order for someone to "win" someone else must lose.

But how exactly is that different from regular capitalism. If one person makes the sale, then someone else did not and lost the sale. If two broadway shows are at the same time, One show wins a customer that the other show lost.

It is a zero sum proposition. In fact, gambling is inherently a collective wasteful activity, because a certain percentage also must of necessity go to the "house" which produces nothing - it only provides the venue for the gambling to take place.

On the same view, you could call all expense on entertainment wasteful. In the stock market, the brokers take money on the transaction. In movies, the theaters and perhaps the studios take cuts.

(As an aside, any argument that the "house" provides work for people - dealers, etc - is inherently flawed, otherwise prositution would be a good thing because it provides work.)

Any transaction of any sort requires a "house". So that in and of itself lends no help or hindrance to the argument. The things being transacted is the substance of the case.

Investment, on the other hand, does produce something. Not always, for there is no assurance in our sinful world that our labor will always be fruitful - people steal, are lazy, make mistakes, there is death, natural disaster, etc. But the underlying substance of all investment, including day trading, is that funds are being provided by one person to another person (often a corporation) in order to provide resources for the successful production of additional wealth.

For my part, that is a huge difference.

Day Traders at best can be seen as necessary evils for the stock market. The companies never see the funds put up by day traders. If day trading was outlawed, no company with a sound business plan would be denied funding over and above those who would be denied with day trading allowed.

I guess at the end of the day, I see most of the arguments posted as being able to be used against entertainment in general, because nothing is "produced". I think that shows an overly broad gun.

 

[Arch2k]

From The Westminster Larger Catechism, A Commentary by Johannes G. Vos.

6. What is "wasteful gaming" and why is it wrong? By "wasteful gaming" the catechism denotes all forms of gambling, which are inherently sinful because they involve an attempt to gain wealth without rendering an equivalent value in return. If the gambler wins, he is a thief; if he loses, he is a waster of his Lord's property. The fact that gambling involves an implied agreement to transfer money or property one way or the other as determined by the "chance" fall of dice, etc., does not make it legitimate. A contract to do something sinful is itself sinful. It has been well said that gamblings stands in the same relation to stealing as dueling does to murder. Gambling includes "slot machines," raffles, "punch boards," betting, lotteries, games of chance played for money or prizes, various forms of "pools," etc. All of these are essentially immoral, and Christian people should leave them all strictly alone. Gambling is not only a sinful vice, but a fever which grows on a person until he cannot let it alone. The only safe and right course is to have nothing whatever to do with gambling in any form. Of course churches and civic organizations that sponsor any kind of gambling scheme are beneath contempt.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

John Gerster in his "early writings" works has a great 2 parter on gambling as a sin.