prayers for the de@d

[rembrandt]

It is pointless!!

But Augustine in his "Confessions" says prayers for the de@d, including his mother, and he also asks us to pray for his de@d mother.

Now, I realize Augustine was a heretic (by today's standards): baptismal regeneration, infused righteousness, etc. But of course, nevertheless, he is still the greatest church father.

I'm sure if he was living today he wouldn't hold to these views, because he was greatly influenced by the church of his own day (sacerdotalism etc.).

But anyways, did Augustine ever recant of this in his Retractions or anything? Also, I can't think of any place in Scripture the absolutely forbids praying for de@d people. Is there? I realize it is utterly pointless. I mean, they are already in heaven or hell. But we (alive people) are also headed for heaven or hell and are Divinely determined for our destination. What is Biblically wrong with saying, "God keep this person in your saftey"? The believer is automatically in God's saftey, so if we can still pray this for the believer, why not for believers in heaven?

Now, the Bible doesn't tell us to pray for de@d people. And that is the biggest reason not to. And that tells us that we are not supposed to. But that doesn't automatically conclude that it is morally wrong to say after your mother's de@th, "God, allow this your servant into heaven through your Beloved Son"?

Rembrandt

[Edited on 5-20-2004 by rembrandt]

[Edited on 5-20-2004 by rembrandt]

 

[rembrandt]

Let me clarify something. I am not talking about praying for an alive believer that is in heaven [i:7269b79d58]regularly[/i:7269b79d58]. [b:7269b79d58]I am only asking if it would be a sin to ask God to allow your mother into heaven after she just passed away (as did Augustine)...[/b:7269b79d58]

 

[cupotea]

I do remember praying the night after my 9 year old nephew died that he would be in heaven. I found out at the wake when a lady came up to me and told me that he had professed his faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior when he was 7.

I honestly don't see anyhting wrong with praying for your mother or father to be in heaven, because someone may come to you later on who knew them and testify of a genuine conversion that took place that you suspected, but never knew for sure.

That is different that having masses said for them and paying a church to buy their soles out of purgatory.

Just my :wr50:

 

[rembrandt]

[quote:9e925dc2d1]That is different that having masses said for them and paying a church to buy their soles out of purgatory.[/quote:9e925dc2d1]

If you don't buy them out, how do you expect their poor souls to be redeemed?... j/k

 

[Bladestunner316]

I dont think cbb had the intention of buying the loved one out it was more of asking for forgiveness on their behalf it could almost be realted to david fasting for his son whom he knew was going to be taken away form him by the Lord,he knew the Lord would not change but did so just in case.

How was augustine a heretic??

blade

 

[andreas]

<<<"Let me clarify something. I am not talking about praying for an alive believer that is in heaven regularly. I am only asking if it would be a sin to ask God to allow your mother into heaven after she just passed away (as did Augustine)...>>>

And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matthew 8:21-22


"And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." Luke 9:59-60

There is not a single evidence to suggest that one should pray for the dead.The truth of the matter is that we should be concerned with the living not the dead.
andreas.

 

[Bladestunner316]

I think the above verses were more talking about following Jesus than being concerned with day to day affairs instead of this issue at hand.

blade

 

[rembrandt]

[quote:d24802faac]There is not a single evidence to suggest that one should pray for the dead.The truth of the matter is that we should be concerned with the living not the dead.[/quote:d24802faac]

But believers who have passed on are alive in heaven. I'm not saying that it would do them any good. And it wouldn't do us any good to be concerned with them. But what if in Augustine's case, he can't help but to be distressed over his mother who just left him? And he prays a short prayer of the such: "God, allow this your servant into heaven through your Beloved Son." Would that be [i:d24802faac]sin[/i:d24802faac]?

Rembrandt

 

[rembrandt]

[quote:0210bc8545]How was augustine a heretic??[/quote:0210bc8545]

I said this earlier: [quote:0210bc8545]Now, I realize Augustine was a heretic (by today's standards): baptismal regeneration, infused righteousness, etc. But of course, nevertheless, he is still the greatest church father.

I'm sure if he was living today he wouldn't hold to these views, because he was greatly influenced by the church of his own day (sacerdotalism etc.).[/quote:0210bc8545]

Only by todays standards. I'm sure if he was living today he would give up his views on baptismal regeneration etc.

 

[andreas]

<<<I think the above verses were more talking about following Jesus than being concerned with day to day affairs instead of this issue at hand. >>>

The verses in question tell us that we should be concerned with the living not the dead.
andreas

 

[andreas]

<<<God, allow this your servant into heaven through your Beloved Son." Would that be sin? >>>

Remember that there is only one mediator between God and men...1 Timothy2:5,and, It is appointed for men to die once and then the judgment. Hebrews 9:27.
Once you are dead you are dead.judgment awaits you.There is nothing you or anyone can do.You may pray if you wish for the dead ,but you will achieve nothing.On the other hand one should always pray for the living.Pray one for another. James 5:16
andreas.

 

[rembrandt]

[quote:0e327f32db]Once you are dead you are dead.judgment awaits you.There is nothing you or anyone can do.[/quote:0e327f32db]

Could God choose to show more mercy to someone who is alive in heaven, because prayers were offered? If this were to be taken to its logical conclusion, prayers for alive people in heaven could be of great benefit. Are there different measures by which God gifts or allots one his share in heaven? Then why couldn't our prayers effect it? If it was said that "it is already determined", I would say that it is the same for the earth dweller (his lot is already determined as well).

Despite of this, I still think it is pointless because the Bible never talks about it except for in the apocrypha (and that was a reference to purgatory).

Rembrandt

 

[rembrandt]

If it was said that, "once you die and go to heaven, you are then given all that you will ever have and it cannot be unfixed", I would say that the final judgment hasn't yet occured and that [partly] blessing and judgment is still pending in a sence. I mean, I realize that they would be glorified. But could there be further blessings that have yet to be given until the end of the age and all the saints are finally gathered?

Rembrandt

 

[andreas]

<<<Could God choose to show more mercy to someone who is alive in heaven, because prayers were offered? If this were to be taken to its logical conclusion, prayers for alive people in heaven could be of great benefit.>>>


We may have a different view of events after death.To me when a believer dies he goes to be with the Lord."To be absent from the body ,is to be present with the Lord". 2 Cor.5:8
What is the point of praying for someone who is in glory?You pray for the living before they die,not after.On the other hand the non believers await in silence for judgment day."For there is no work nor device,nor knowledge,nor wisdom,in the grave,whither thou goest". Ecc.9:10
andreas.

 

[rembrandt]

I am not trying to make an arguement for praying for dead people. Just taking this to its conclusions.

[quote:bf7110437f]What is the point of praying for someone who is in glory?[/quote:bf7110437f]


I wrote this earlier:
[quote:bf7110437f]I realize that they would be glorified. But could there be further blessings that have yet to be given until the end of the age and all the saints are finally gathered?[/quote:bf7110437f]

 

[andreas]

<<<I realize that they would be glorified. But could there be further blessings that have yet to be given until the end of the age and all the saints are finally gathered?>>>

Glory is glory.There is only one glory,there are no degrees of glory .It is not like meat ,which you can have rare,medium rare or well done.Once you are glorified it is the ultimate.What other blessings do you have in mind?
andreas.

 

[rembrandt]

[quote:7d13247818][i:7d13247818]Originally posted by andreas[/i:7d13247818]
<<<I realize that they would be glorified. But could there be further blessings that have yet to be given until the end of the age and all the saints are finally gathered?>>>

Glory is glory.There is only one glory,there are no degrees of glory .It is not like meat ,which you can have rare,medium rare or well done.Once you are glorified it is the ultimate.What other blessings do you have in mind?
andreas. [/quote:7d13247818]

New Jerusalem, glorification and presence of the entire church in heaven...

Is the ONLY blessing in heaven 'glorification'? Meeting with God face to face is not glorification itself. It is an implication I think. Let me ask this, do you think that God could bless one person with a special honorary title over another person who is blessed in another way?

Rembrandt

P.S. let me say again that I think this is all speculative and no use for the simple Christian. There are some aspects however that might be revealed.

 

[andreas]

<<<Let me ask this, do you think that God could bless one person with a special honorary title over another person who is blessed in another way?>>>

Why should He?We are all unprofitable servants.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do". luke 17:10
andreas.

 

[rembrandt]

so, the 12 apostles will not have an honorary title?

 

[andreas]

<<<so, the 12 apostles will not have an honorary title?>>>


All believers are part of the body of Christ the church,the new Jerusalem which is holy and comes from God.The body is made up of a large numbers of individual parts all necessary to form the body.If a part is missing ,we no longer have a body.Likewise the church is made up of individual believers, all forming the body,"for the body is not one member but many"1 Cor.12:14, with Christ as the head,inseperable,no honorary titles.The apostles are our brothers in Christ ,nothing else.
"So we being many,are one body in Christ,and everyone members of one another".Rom.12:5.
"Now you are the body of Christ and members in particular" 1 Cor.12:27.
"That there should be no schism in the body,but that the members should have the same care one for another".1 Cor.12:25
All members are equally important,and that means no honorary titles.
andreas.