Praying in King James english.

[Ne Oublie]

I have heard some arguments for praying in King James english that seem plausible and from those that I greatly respect. I am not sure what to think about it myself, as it is a bit confusing to me. I understand the principle of praying through the language of scripture and I have no issues with praying in KJ english. With that being said, I do not feel compelled to pray that way myself, neither personally nor in my family.

For those that pray in KJ english, what are your thoughts? Is this just for public prayer? It seems impersonal to me, as I do not speak this way in any manner, and I do not believe that KJ english is the most reverent language to use.

I am not looking for a translation debate, but just asking for others thoughts on this.

 

[Skyler]

Personally I pray in ESV English.

If by "praying through the language of the scripture" you mean the actual language it's written in, then I'd suggest learning Greek. If you mean the terminology, the ideas, the concepts expressed in Scripture, then sure, go right ahead--in your own words.

Some people learn about and worship God with the King James Version and as a result feel more "connected" with God when using that dialect. That's fine. It happens to anyone who learns more than one language--some friends I know love praying in German, or Spanish. It's a personal choice between you and God. Don't do it to "show off" or impress people with how spiritual you are. I would go so far as to say don't just do it because that's what everybody else does. Do it the way that helps you focus on God and not yourself or everyone else.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I do find myself out of habit using KJV English in my prayers (and even in my sermons, especially if I am quoting from memory). I use the KJV in my devotional time so it kind of just bleeds over.

 

[Ne Oublie]

Interesting, as I also use the KJV and read mostly puritan writers and my pastor also prays this way, but yet I have not been so compelled. It makes me think I am missing something, in a peculiar way. Should I be praying this way, if everyone around me is?

 

[Skyler]

Should I be praying this way, if everyone around me is?

Depends. Are you praying to them or God?

 

[KMK]

Personally, I dislike when people pray woodenly and haltingly because they want to show off their knowledge of the NASB.

Seriously, if you spend most of your time reading the KJV and reading the works of those who quote the KJV, you will naturally start to pray the KJV.

 

[au5t1n]

In addition to the reasons already given, it can also be helpful for cultivating a heart attitude of reverence, similar to why we often kneel, close our eyes, and/or fold our hands in prayer. It has a long history. Even when "you" became the common form of address (early 17th century I think) people continued to pray this way.

I believe the answer to this question is similar to the question of whether you should kneel -- it's the heart attitude that matters, but these sort of things can help bring that into focus if used with the right intentions.

 

[Pergamum]

This issue used to be a pet peeve of mine. We'd have prayer meetings and folks would break out the Thees and Thous.... I was very much against it because that was NOT how these people talked in real life, so why are they praying like this?

But, then I realized that the KJV was the "heart language" of many people and that, through much reading of that particular version, they naturally regurgitated it back out in Elisabethan English when they prayed. So, clearly it was not an act or done under the pretension of sounding holier but simply because these saints read the bible in that particular version.

So, while I do think there is a danger in praying in some manner (any manner) that is different from the normal way people speak, I can better sympathize with what I still think is an annoying habit now.

One last point: Here, the local dialect of the national language is different and much simpler than the national language in its "proper form" as spoken 700 miles to the west of this province. When local Christians speak normally, therefore, they use a very simple form of the national language. However, when they go to bible school or "learn how to pray properly," they are often taught formulaic phrases that are common and "proper" in the language of wider communication. Thus, the national language in its "proper form" replaces the normal speech of the people when they return from bible school and these evangelists no longer use the simple language that they grew up with. I think this creates a barrier to prayer and negatively impacts the priesthood of all believers, since now only a few can "pray properly."

 

[jambo]

Whilst most people pray in KJ English out of reverence for God, I do not think it necessary. When the apostles prayed did they pray in 4th century BC language? No they used the common Greek of the day.

 

[Ivan]

Use to do it back in the day. I never hear anyone praying that way today. In the church I grew up in we had a man who pray beautifully in KJV English, it was like you were at the throne of God. Then, after I got out of high school, I worked with him. Not to defame sailors but none of them had anything on him! Never listened to his public prayers again.

 

[KMK]

Whilst most people pray in KJ English out of reverence for God, I do not think it necessary.

Funny!

Just as in everything else, a better vocabulary is not a hindrance to prayer, but a help. I use a certain vocabulary around the kindergarteners at work, but that doesn't mean I use that vocabulary when I pray.

 

[JonathanHunt]

Whilst most people pray in KJ English out of reverence for God, I do not think it necessary.

Funny!

Just as in everything else, a better vocabulary is not a hindrance to prayer, but a help. I use a certain vocabulary around the kindergarteners at work, but that doesn't mean I use that vocabulary when I pray.

'Whilst' is olde english, but still very much in everyday use in the UK, unlike many other words such as 'thees' and 'thous'

 

[KMK]

Whilst most people pray in KJ English out of reverence for God, I do not think it necessary.

Funny!

Just as in everything else, a better vocabulary is not a hindrance to prayer, but a help. I use a certain vocabulary around the kindergarteners at work, but that doesn't mean I use that vocabulary when I pray.

'Whilst' is olde english, but still very much in everyday use in the UK, unlike many other words such as 'thees' and 'thous'

No kidding! Is the 'while' also in common usage? I applaud the British for their attempts to uphold pure English.

 

[Kevin]

I would not recomend it for public prayer. Prayers that are offered out loud are intended to be understood by those that are able to hear them. Speaking in an affected dialect does not help them understand you.

Of course God understands. He even knows that you mean to be reverent, but you are using the familiar pronouns. And he judges your heart. He knows that you mean to honour him by saying "thee" & "thou" when all you are doing is using an out of date version of "hey, buddy".

Before you try to adopt the practice, ask yourself "would I pray out loud in Latin?" After all it is more reverent, it is the traditional language of prayer in the west, etc. If you would object to praying in Latin, then don't adopt a 300 year old dialect because it is "more reverent".

 

[Leslie]

Do any of you pastor sorts ever have strangers attend your church, those with no Christian background, no KJ understanding? Can you envision what a KJ language prayer does in terms of putting off these people who might be seeking a relationship to God?

 

[Romans922]

Westminster Directory of Public Worship: "All the canonical books of the Old and New Testament (but none of those which are commonly called Apocrypha) shall be publickly read in the vulgar tongue, out of the best allowed translation, distinctly, that all may hear and understand."

I know this is not about reading of Scripture but the reading of Scripture (at least in this thread) goes hand in hand with how one prays. We should pray in the vulgar tongue.

Vulgar: "common, popular, current"


I guess the question then is: "Is reading the KJV in public worship a reading of the vulgar ('current, popular, current') tongue?" If so, then praying in such a way is fine/right/good. If not, then I would question whether praying in public worship in such a way is fine/right/good.

 

[jayce475]

Here we go again... KJV and WCF i:8

 

[Pergamum]

Kevin,

But most "KJV-prayer-ers' would deny that they do this because it is more reverent. Many merely do it because it is the language that they are familiar with.

IF (and on this IF hangs the whole argument) they do, in fact, use KJV English to sound more reverant, then we should be much less tolerant of this practice. If, however, they were raised on a diet of KJV and the Scripture that they memorize is KJV, then we should be very tolerant and accepting.

 

[Kevin]

Pergy, I'll grant your thesis. But when I ask those same brothers why they are "familiar with" this dialect, they say "because it is more reverent".

QED

 

[KMK]

Do any of you pastor sorts ever have strangers attend your church, those with no Christian background, no KJ understanding? Can you envision what a KJ language prayer does in terms of putting off these people who might be seeking a relationship to God?

Is this an accusation that pastors who pray in the language of the KJV hinder the gospel?

 

[Pergamum]

Kevin, if that is the case I guess you need to start praying in Latin around these guys then.

 

[Romans 8 Verse 28]

Here we go again... KJV and WCF i:8

True. The final post in that thread is excellent (bold added):

Frankly, I haven't seen anyone deal with the Assembly's work sufficiently to support this idea WCF 1.8 obviates the KJV now. I think such an argument may not be able to escape the fact such an interpretation of 1.8 would have obviated the KJV, at the time of the Assembly.

 

[TexanRose]

The people I know who pray in the language of the KJV do so for two reasons, first one being that they are saturated with Scripture and the Bible that they use is the KJV, and secondly because thee and thou are singular and therefore are a more precise way to address God than our "you" which could be either singular or plural. The argument is that the Greek and Hebrew have different pronouns for singular and plural, therefore we should retain the KJV English on this point because it more accurately reflects the pronoun usage of the Bible in the original manuscripts.

 

[reformedminister]

I used to pray in KJV English, however, in Seminary my preaching professor and Dean of the school taught against it. So, I quit doing it. I primarily read and preach from the KJV but no longer pray that way. However, I do not have anything against it if that is how one is naturally comfortable praying and it is an expression of their heart. I don't think one should think it is the more "correct" way of praying, or in ESV language for that matter.

 

[Rich Koster]

LBC1689 22.3 Prayer with thanksgiving, being one part of natural worship, is required by God of all people.1 But to be acceptable, it must be made in the name of the Son,2 by the help of his Spirit,3 and according to his will.4 It must also be made with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love, and perseverance,5 and when with others in a known language.6

(1) Psa 95:1-7; 100:1-5
(2) Joh 14:13-14
(3) Rom 8:26
(4) 1Jo 5:14
(5) Psa 47:7; Ecc 5:1-2; Heb 12:28; Gen 18:27; Jas 5:16; 1:6-7; Mar 11:24; Mat 6:12,14-15; Col 4:2; Eph 6:18
(6) 1Co 14:13-19,27-28

If you are among people who are used to 17th century English, it is fine. If you would cause others to be left with no understanding, I would reconsider my vocabulary.

 

[JML]

and when with others in a known language

Maybe I misread you but I don't think we can say that the English in the King James is an unknown language. There may be some words that some would not understand but I don't think that would make it an unknown "language." There are some words in the modern versions that will not be understood by all hearers. If an unbeliever came in and heard the words atonement or sanctification in our prayers they wouldn't know what that meant. Does that mean we shouldn't use those words in our prayers?

 

[toddpedlar]

It's how my pastor prays and I've naturally picked it up, like Pastor Glaser, due to my reading of the KJV and many Puritan writers. While I think it's permissible, and it's my personal practice, I don't think it's required or "more spiritual."

Quite honestly I think if it became something that felt "more spiritual" I'd be concerned about slipping into something of an idolatrous practice.

 

[EverReforming]

As has been stated by others here, we're not praying to show off for others, so if praying in KJ English helps you focus your thoughts, then fine, but its by no means a necessary requirement.

Whilst most people pray in KJ English out of reverence for God, I do not think it necessary. When the apostles prayed did they pray in 4th century BC language? No they used the common Greek of the day.

No, obviously, the apostles spoke in KJ English. They were very forward looking.

 

[Skyler]

No, obviously, the apostles spoke in KJ English. They were very forward looking.

Speaking in tongues.

 

[Rich Koster]

and when with others in a known language

Maybe I misread you but I don't think we can say that the English in the King James is an unknown language. There may be some words that some would not understand but I don't think that would make it an unknown "language." There are some words in the modern versions that will not be understood by all hearers. If an unbeliever came in and heard the words atonement or sanctification in our prayers they wouldn't know what that meant. Does that mean we shouldn't use those words in our prayers?

Firstly, we are talking about the assembled Church here. So in my opinion, outsiders would not come into play here. Secondly, What I believe is being addressed is offering prayer in the vernacular. Here is an example. In the back of my 1599 Geneva is a list of archaic words. If someone prayed using these words, the majority of us, including myself, would have no understanding. Leaning toward being charitable I would not use them to avoid leaving many of my brethren without understanding. I would also add that it would be lacking humility and charity if one wished to exercise their vast vocabulary before others without consideration for them. God will understand them, but how can others add the amen to what they don't understand? I would especially be careful with English as a second language situations.