PRAYING WITH UNBELIEVERS (or in the midst of them)

[earl40]

The bible tells us to pray for those who persecute you, which would also mean praying for unbelievers. I would extend this to say pray for everyone.

What would be the difference if we pray for and pray with them?

The difference is between the word "for" and "with".

 

[RobertPGH1981]

The difference is between the word "for" and "with".

I don't believe that God intends us to be that technical. If we can pray for them, then I doubt it would wrong to pray with them. What would be wrong with asking a non-believer if there is anything you could pray for them about, and then standing with them and praying for them? This would be especially true if they want you to pray that God will open their eyes to the truth. That God would bring them to repentance if that would be their desire. If this happens I would say God is already working in their heart, but in either case we should still pray for non-believers.

If a non-believer asked you to pray with them, you would tell them no?

 

[J. Dean]

The question boils down to whether or not said unbeliever is given the wrong impression that has has right standing with God vs. say, praying with an unbeliever for healing but recognizing that the unbeliever is still an unbeliever and making him understand that in no uncertain terms.

Does that make sense?

 

[earl40]

The difference is between the word "for" and "with".

I don't believe that God intends us to be that technical. If we can pray for them, then I doubt it would wrong to pray with them. What would be wrong with asking a non-believer if there is anything you could pray for them about, and then standing with them and praying for them? This would be especially true if they want you to pray that God will open their eyes to the truth. That God would bring them to repentance if that would be their desire. If this happens I would say God is already working in their heart, but in either case we should still pray for non-believers.

If a non-believer asked you to pray with them, you would tell them no?

Of course I would. Take for instance if I "know" or suspect a person is an unbeliever (yes I judge the state of many people current soul) I would use pronouns like "me" and "I" and pray FOR them. Now if I "know" or suspect they dio believe in Jesus I will use the pronouns "us" and "our". In mixed company I rather not pray at all for I believe prayer is a true form of worship and I suspect we would agree that God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified. Of course I understand the pastor does indeed do such, BUT I have noticed many that times the pastor will call the congregation to worship knowing he is calling all believers to come and worship God in spirit and truth.

 

[toddpedlar]

In mixed company I rather not pray at all for I believe prayer is a true form of worship and I suspect we would agree that God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified. Of course I understand the pastor does indeed do such, BUT I have noticed many that times the pastor will call the congregation to worship knowing he is calling all believers to come and worship God in spirit and truth.

So God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified?

Then He does not want the church to meet corporately.

 

[earl40]

In mixed company I rather not pray at all for I believe prayer is a true form of worship and I suspect we would agree that God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified. Of course I understand the pastor does indeed do such, BUT I have noticed many that times the pastor will call the congregation to worship knowing he is calling all believers to come and worship God in spirit and truth.

So God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified?

Then He does not want the church to meet corporately.

I hear you and understand where you are coming from. Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church? If not why not?

 

[Edward]

Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church?

I'd love to have some Mormons visit our church. And Catholics, and Muslims (but I'd sit where I could keep an eye on them) and perhaps even Dispensationalists. Wouldn't you?

 

[earl40]

My biblical warrant is that Jesus prayed during the Passover supper while Judas was present at the table.

I just went through the gospels and when I did I see only one reference to Jesus giving praise and it appears to be after Judas left the table. In one gospel Jesus tells him to do what he is going to do "quickly" (I assume Judas left then) and in Matthews gospel it says Jesus gave thanks after He spoke of one who will betray Him. I am open to correction.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------

Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church?

I'd love to have some Mormons visit our church. And Catholics, and Muslims (but I'd sit where I could keep an eye on them) and perhaps even Dispensationalists. Wouldn't you?

Of course I would. Though I would be interested to hear if you would invite an entire JW ward to visit to worship WITH your church?

 

[toddpedlar]

In mixed company I rather not pray at all for I believe prayer is a true form of worship and I suspect we would agree that God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified. Of course I understand the pastor does indeed do such, BUT I have noticed many that times the pastor will call the congregation to worship knowing he is calling all believers to come and worship God in spirit and truth.

So God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified?

Then He does not want the church to meet corporately.

I hear you and understand where you are coming from. Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church? If not why not?

Yes, and any other unbelievers. And Christ and Him crucified would as always be preached.

My point is there may be and likely are unbelieving people in most true churches, and their existence does not, and indeed must not stop or cause us to feel subconscious about exercising in true prayer, preaching or the sacraments rightly administered. Their presence at least some of the time is assured, but the church cannot and must not cease being the church.

 

[toddpedlar]

My biblical warrant is that Jesus prayed during the Passover supper while Judas was present at the table.

I just went through the gospels and when I did I see only one reference to Jesus giving praise and it appears to be after Judas left the table. In one gospel Jesus tells him to do what he is going to do "quickly" (I assume Judas left then) and in Matthews gospel it says Jesus gave thanks after He spoke of one who will betray Him. I am open to correction.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------

Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church?

I'd love to have some Mormons visit our church. And Catholics, and Muslims (but I'd sit where I could keep an eye on them) and perhaps even Dispensationalists. Wouldn't you?

Of course I would. Though I would be interested to hear if you would invite an entire JW ward to visit to worship WITH your church?

Why not? now you realize nobody is going to do this inviting while referring to the JW's as Christians, or let them "run the show", but rather they would be welcomed in as a collection of unbelievers, indeed as would anyone off the street be invited.

 

[toddpedlar]

Really though it's time to stop assembling the strawmen, Earl.

 

[Loopie]

This is a very interesting discussion, though it seems that some participants do not differentiate between praying 'for' someone and praying 'with' someone. I myself probably would make a distinction between those terms. Allow me to explain.

I have several atheist friends that I have been friends with for almost ten years. One of them is a self proclaimed 'agnostic', although I can tell that he has a lot of anger towards God. My other friend is simply too prideful (and hateful) to even acknowledge that God exists (he is the kind of person who would never bow the knee to anyone, let alone Christ).

Now if one of them were to come up to me and ask me to pray 'with' them, I would at first be surprised, but would gladly do so. I mean, how many atheists would actually ask you to pray 'with' them unless perhaps God has changed them (or is preparing their hearts in some way)?

At the same time, I often tell them that I am praying 'for' them, although I always include in my prayers that they might repent of their sin and recognize Christ as Lord. So far they don't seem to mind me praying 'for' them, although sometimes they give a sarcastic remark when I say that I am going to do that.

On the other hand, there are also times where I asked them if they want me to pray 'for' them. In general the answer is: "I don't care", or "If you want to". So usually I just do it anyways. Again, those who are hostile to God are not often going to be concerned if you are praying for them or not.

Lastly, there is never a time where I have asked them to pray 'with' me. Even so, when I have them over for dinner I still pray over the meal, and sometimes my 'less hostile' friend actually says 'thank you for the prayer'. I have no doubt though that the 'more hostile' one is either very uncomfortable or simply tunes me out. Either way, they both know what to expect when they come over to my house, but in that situation I am not praying 'with' them, but simply am praying in front of them.

With that said, I think that there is no reason not to pray 'for' someone, regardless of their beliefs. As for praying 'in front of' someone, I also think there is no reason not to do this (we should not be afraid to pray around strangers or unbelievers). In the example of praying over the meal, I do not expect my atheist friends to actually pray 'with' me, and I certainly am not forcing them to pray 'with' me. I still pray in front of them regardless of what they think, and I do not let their unbelief make me uncomfortable about praying.

Now when it comes to praying 'with' someone, I think it can be divided into two different scenarios:

1) If anyone asks me to pray 'with' them, I will never say no. Even if I have known them to be an atheist for decades, I do not know what God has done to their hearts recently, and so this becomes an easy 'yes'.

2) I am not going to ask someone to pray 'with' me unless I believe them to be a Christian. Obviously I do not infallibly know their heart, but if they profess Christ as Lord, then I would have no problem praying 'with' them, whether they ask me to or I ask them to. This is very different than me praying 'for' a complete stranger that I meet on the street, because when you are praying 'with' someone it implies that both of you are in an attitude of prayer and worship to God. In all other situations, when you are praying 'for' someone, it implies that only you are in an attitude of prayer and worship to God, regardless of who you are praying for and who is around you when you are praying.

Thoughts?

 

[earl40]

Really though it's time to stop assembling the strawmen, Earl.

Yes you are correct. I apologize for doing so.

Now let me give a real example. At my work, a SDA hospital, they start every meeting with a word of prayer and encourage everyone to start every meeting with a word of prayer. Now we that at the meetings are "trapped" in being there while they pray. Now I use "we" as those that are believers being there while a prayer is lead by an unbeliever, or "we" are trapped being there while the prayer is lead by an unbeliever. I feel bad for those that are unbelievers having to be there against their will. I also feel VERY BAD about being there when the prayer is lead by an unbeliever, which BTW I put up with and get over a little too quickly than I probably should.

Todd what about your thoughts on Judas being present while Jesus "gave thanks" at the last supper, and what I wrote about earlier in that it appears he (Judas) left before He gave thanks?

---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

This is a very interesting discussion, though it seems that some participants do not differentiate between praying 'for' someone and praying 'with' someone. I myself probably would make a distinction between those terms. Allow me to explain.

I have several atheist friends that I have been friends with for almost ten years. One of them is a self proclaimed 'agnostic', although I can tell that he has a lot of anger towards God. My other friend is simply too prideful (and hateful) to even acknowledge that God exists (he is the kind of person who would never bow the knee to anyone, let alone Christ).

Now if one of them were to come up to me and ask me to pray 'with' them, I would at first be surprised, but would gladly do so. I mean, how many atheists would actually ask you to pray 'with' them unless perhaps God has changed them (or is preparing their hearts in some way)?

At the same time, I often tell them that I am praying 'for' them, although I always include in my prayers that they might repent of their sin and recognize Christ as Lord. So far they don't seem to mind me praying 'for' them, although sometimes they give a sarcastic remark when I say that I am going to do that.

On the other hand, there are also times where I asked them if they want me to pray 'for' them. In general the answer is: "I don't care", or "If you want to". So usually I just do it anyways. Again, those who are hostile to God are not often going to be concerned if you are praying for them or not.

Lastly, there is never a time where I have asked them to pray 'with' me. Even so, when I have them over for dinner I still pray over the meal, and sometimes my 'less hostile' friend actually says 'thank you for the prayer'. I have no doubt though that the 'more hostile' one is either very uncomfortable or simply tunes me out. Either way, they both know what to expect when they come over to my house, but in that situation I am not praying 'with' them, but simply am praying in front of them.

With that said, I think that there is no reason not to pray 'for' someone, regardless of their beliefs. As for praying 'in front of' someone, I also think there is no reason not to do this (we should not be afraid to pray around strangers or unbelievers). In the example of praying over the meal, I do not expect my atheist friends to actually pray 'with' me, and I certainly am not forcing them to pray 'with' me. I still pray in front of them regardless of what they think, and I do not let their unbelief make me uncomfortable about praying.

Now when it comes to praying 'with' someone, I think it can be divided into two different scenarios:

1) If anyone asks me to pray 'with' them, I will never say no. Even if I have known them to be an atheist for decades, I do not know what God has done to their hearts recently, and so this becomes an easy 'yes'.

2) I am not going to ask someone to pray 'with' me unless I believe them to be a Christian. Obviously I do not infallibly know their heart, but if they profess Christ as Lord, then I would have no problem praying 'with' them, whether they ask me to or I ask them to. This is very different than me praying 'for' a complete stranger that I meet on the street, because when you are praying 'with' someone it implies that both of you are in an attitude of prayer and worship to God. In all other situations, when you are praying 'for' someone, it implies that only you are in an attitude of prayer and worship to God, regardless of who you are praying for and who is around you when you are praying.

Thoughts?

I thought this was great. I believe you have conveyed my thoughts better than I have in that there is a difference between "for" and "with".