Premillennialism and the problem of subjectivity?

[jwright82]

I was watching the news today and they were talking about the earthquake in Chille and it reminded me of the whole eschatology thing, particulerly Mathew 24: 7.
Now I don't hold to a Premillenialist view point, I am more of a Partial Preterest, but I thought of a question for anyone who holds to this view.

As I understand it any view point that holds to a strict future fullment of Mathew 24, that is in all its detail, and beleives that these things are sighns of the times, than it seems to me that they might have a problem here of subjectivaly interpreting the things around as being the literal sighns of the times. I mean it seems to me that to be legitamate sighns they must be objective and they must be able to be perceived in the present for what they are.

There always have been and always will be these things mentioned in the text but if they are truly sighns than they must be qualitativly distinct from all the rest, but in what perceviable way are they? I mean they are not really important sighns if they are only understood in 20/20 hindsight, because there will be a plethora of sighns if you will then. But these are the ones mentioned and if they are taken to be the sighns of times than how will we know while they are happening? I hope this makes sense, and I am curious as to whay might be possible answers to my question.

 

[Notthemama1984]

The typical Dispensational response to this would be that the earthquakes and wars will be increasing. That is why you can find rapture websites that keep count of all of the earthquakes and how many wars or conflicts are currently going on. The problem with this is that history did not keep a list of every earthquake that happened. Also these rapture websites count earthquakes that register on our seismic equipment, but cannot be felt by humans. So how can we say earthquakes are increasing when we have no clue what the average year really produces?

 

[jwright82]

The typical Dispensational response to this would be that the earthquakes and wars will be increasing. That is why you can find rapture websites that keep count of all of the earthquakes and how many wars or conflicts are currently going on. The problem with this is that history did not keep a list of every earthquake that happened. Also these rapture websites count earthquakes that register on our seismic equipment, but cannot be felt by humans. So how can we say earthquakes are increasing when we have no clue what the average year really produces?

Thank you, I absolutly cocnur. One thing to point out is that in logic a quantitative difference, earthquakes increasing, does not equal a qualitative difference, percevable sighns of the times. I didn't just mean Dyspys though I meant any view point that beleives this.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Oh and realize you want to know about all the views, but I could only speak about Dispensationalists.

 

[Scott1]

We are limited beings.

God created us, so we are created beings, by definition less than He which created us.

We do not have His attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. We do not have the ability to contain, every natural disaster that might be going on in His Creation, far less put in perspective and compare it with other periods. We do have unprecedented communication and media access, though, through selective input usually not put in context of our time, let alone that of history.

For example, did you know the tallest tsunami known to science was in Alaska? In 1958?
http://geology.com/records/biggest-tsunami.shtml

Did you know the worst damage tsunami was also in Alaska? In 1964?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/tsunamis/alaska/1964/webpages/index.html

There may be more natural disasters toward the end of the world (a.k.a. the end of this age). It is possible. But that does not require a certain millennial view. Remember, premillennialism would say a physical reign of Christ for 1,000 years on man's calendar with a political kingdom headquartered at Jerusalem.

Even if God is moving His Creation in what we call natural disasters, it does not at all presume a premillennial eschatological view. Actually, it might more feed to God reigning now, over His Creation, actively involved in the details of His Universe, including the natural forces He ordains.

 

[jwright82]

We are limited beings.

God created us, so we are created beings, by definition less than He which created us.

We do not have His attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. We do not have the ability to contain, every natural disaster that might be going on in His Creation, far less put in perspective and compare it with other periods. We do have unprecedented communication and media access, though, through selective input usually not put in context of our time, let alone that of history.

There may be more natural disasters toward the end of the world (a.k.a. the end of this age). It is possible. But that does not require a certain millennial view. Remember, premillennialism would say a physical reign of Christ for 1,000 years on man's calendar with a political kingdom headquartered at Jerusalem.

Even if God is moving His Creation in what we call natural disasters, it does not at all presume a premillennial eschatological view. Actually, it might more feed to God reigning now, over His Creation, actively involved in the details of His Universe, including the natural forces He ordains.

I completly agree that is why I qualified my statement with saying that anyone who takes these things as sighns of the times, I didn't mean to imply that this was true of all Premill's but only Premill's that accept this second statement as well.

 

[Curt]

The typical Dispensational response to this would be that the earthquakes and wars will be increasing. That is why you can find rapture websites that keep count of all of the earthquakes and how many wars or conflicts are currently going on. The problem with this is that history did not keep a list of every earthquake that happened. Also these rapture websites count earthquakes that register on our seismic equipment, but cannot be felt by humans. So how can we say earthquakes are increasing when we have no clue what the average year really produces?

Certainly we need a report on how the earthquake in Chile is a fulfilled prophecy with regard to Israel.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

As I understand it any view point that holds to a strict future fullment of Mathew 24, that is in all its detail

What view holds that all of Matthew 24 in all detail is future ? Every premill position I know of (including Dispensational premill) believe that the first part deals with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD (not one stone will be left upon another).

 

[jwright82]

As I understand it any view point that holds to a strict future fullment of Mathew 24, that is in all its detail

What view holds that all of Matthew 24 in all detail is future ? Every premill position I know of (including Dispensational premill) believe that the first part deals with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD (not one stone will be left upon another).

Yes thats true but every Premill view I have ever heard said that verses 4- at least the end of the chapter refer to the future. But not all views that I have heard claim that the earthquakes and things are the sighns of the times.