Presbyterian Pride, Meredeth Kline, and a New Way of Doing Seminary

[N. Eshelman]

A number of years ago Gary North wrote a great book on how the liberals took over the Presbyterian Church (Crossed Fingers). In that book he outlined some things Presbyterian denominations ought to do as they educate their future pastors. Some of that is expanded on in this article today as he calls on Presbyterians to uncross their fingers and reconsider our seminaries.

Does he have a legitimate point here? Ought we have regional, unaccredited, presbytery-based seminaries?

Video: Baptists, Beware! A Presbyterian Attack on Creationism Is Headed Your Way.

 

[Pilgrim]

I wonder how his proposal would differ from Richard Pratt's. I've seen Pratt argue "what we have now isn't working" but I don't know exactly what his solution is or if he has offered one in any detail. My understanding is that Thirdmill is mainly aimed at training men in the Third World.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Well, I happen to know of one seminary that is completely tuition free that is continuing to make inroads into educating future leaders within the church: | The North American Reformed Seminary

 

[TylerRay]

I think North has an excellent point about the presbytery's authority and responsibility to train ministers. Whether a presbytery delegates that responsibility to a seminary or not is its prerogative; but whatever the case, the presbytery needs to take an active interest.

A cautionary reminder: it's North we're dealing with. He has never had a reputation of being moderate or balanced. He has always asserted his stimulating but radical ideas as the only legitimate option. He is all the more to be handled with caution today because of his affiliation with the CREC (which makes his claims as a conservative Presbyterian seem suspect).

 

[Philip]

A couple of things:

1) Presbyteries ought to be more involved in the training of ministers of the Gospel. Nopth is right.

2) However, I think to be an effective minister of the Gospel, one needs to engage with controversies and with people outside one's own tradition. Even a confessional seminary like WTS or a denominational one like Covenant will have a few Baptist students.

3) Professorial mentorship. The big drawback of online lectures is that the student has no relationship with the prof. Even an email relationship is too impersonal for real mentorship to take place.

4) Funding. This is fixable, but would mean that Presbyteries and local churches need to consider other options. I'm working with a program here at GCTS that tackles this exact issue.

 

[Grimmson]

4) Funding. This is fixable, but would mean that Presbyteries and local churches need to consider other options. I'm working with a program here at GCTS that tackles this exact issue.

Philip, I do not think funding should be much of an issue if you have a band of ordained ministers working together in a session or presbytery. It just means less time for minsters to read books. And I make the comment about books because it seems in Presbyterian circles that book looking/reading takes priority over ministry at times. But going back to funding, I think the only cost should be the price of books for students. It should be a church’s job to train up their leaders and I base this on the great commission. But then again I have publically addressed the issue of seminary cost and the responsibility of Pastors to train pastors on the local level many times on here. In fact. I think the idea of placing a student under care and not providing this education or financial assistance is not really placing the student under care. And I do think such lack of care his sinful.

On the issue of engagement of other traditions, unless a student actively desires to engage another tradition it probably will not happen as fully as on would like at a Reformed Seminary. Therefore, I think it is a moot point since this engagement is not reinforced strongly by the seminary. It fact I would say quite the opposite is true, that it is more Baptists that are engaging in a different tradition then the Reformed. If the engagement of other traditions is a must then I suggest the student make some Baptist friends, there are plenty of us out there.

I think we are seeing the direct result of out-sourcing the church’s responsibility to educate the people of God. Those being a high level of debt, liberalism reinforced, churches not being ministered due to size, and professionalization of the office of the minister. And I grieve for the next generation of the church because of what previous here have allowed and reinforced when the church without due thought on the consequences of such actions. And this is not a theoretical concept for me. This is a practical one that I must live and must deal with the consequences of for the rest of my life.

 

[DMcFadden]

Give me a good "ole fashion" confessional school any day over this kind of stuff from the elites at Harvard:

HDS 3590 Religion, Gender, Identity in 21st Century Diasporic Muslim Fiction (FALL 2015)
HDS 3627/AES 54 For the Love of God and His Prophet: Religion, Literature and the Arts in Muslim Cultures
HDS 2749/AAAS 104y Transnational Feminism (FALL 2015)
HDS 2935 Compassionate Care of the Dying: Buddhist Training and Techniques (SPRING 2016)
HDS 2357/Religion 1463 Evangelical Conversion and Disenchantment Narratives (FALL 2015)
HDS 2360/Religion 1562 Alternative Spiritualities in the United States (FALL 2015)
HDS 2802 Religion, Ecology, and Human Rights (SPRING 2016)
HDS 1883 Diversity and New Testament Interpretation (SPRING 2016)

 

[Dearly Bought]

Give me a good "ole fashion" confessional school any day over this kind of stuff from the elites at Harvard:

HDS 3590 Religion, Gender, Identity in 21st Century Diasporic Muslim Fiction (FALL 2015)
HDS 3627/AES 54 For the Love of God and His Prophet: Religion, Literature and the Arts in Muslim Cultures
HDS 2749/AAAS 104y Transnational Feminism (FALL 2015)
HDS 2935 Compassionate Care of the Dying: Buddhist Training and Techniques (SPRING 2016)
HDS 2357/Religion 1463 Evangelical Conversion and Disenchantment Narratives (FALL 2015)
HDS 2360/Religion 1562 Alternative Spiritualities in the United States (FALL 2015)
HDS 2802 Religion, Ecology, and Human Rights (SPRING 2016)
HDS 1883 Diversity and New Testament Interpretation (SPRING 2016)

I think you just made my right eye twitch.

 

[Edward]

Well, perhaps we should match up this quote from the article:

There would be far more candidates for the ministry.

with this current thread

http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/there-still-pastor-glut-84425/

as we think this through.

As to the merits -

Reformed or semi-reformed seminary educations are now available in dozens of cities around the country. Does anyone here really think that a seminary controlled by one of the more liberal urban presbyteries would be more conservative than a branch of one of the moderate seminaries presently located there?

 

[Grimmson]

Reformed or semi-reformed seminary educations are now available in dozens of cities around the country. Does anyone here really think that a seminary controlled by one of the more liberal urban presbyteries would be more conservative than a branch of one of the moderate seminaries presently located there?

I think that is a great question. And to answer your question, it depends on the “moderate” seminary and what is being established as conservative. And I do not think it takes much for a moderate seminary to become a liberal seminary. Of course one would hope for a moderate to be more conservative when it comes to the Gospel and biblical exegesis. I do not think new seminaries need to be built or established, we need churches to abide by their covenantal obligations towards those disciples of Christ who would become the future officers of the church. I find it strange that an organization technically outside a church or denomination is allowed to have such a strong influence on a church or denomination today. If a moderate seminary teaches something or behaves in such a way that is inappropriate to a church, or denomination, such a church or denomination has no discipline power to act on that seminary. Which I think is a problem. And can encourage heterodoxy and the path to heresy. And thus become an apostate denomination in time. We should not be too concerned about liberal seminaries controlled by a liberal urban presbytery because of already established control of philosophical thought that is binding the liberals together in the seminary and presbytery but instead on the needed continuance of orthodoxy in established churches today and the needs of the people of God in relation to the education of these officers. Because these offices will have a direct impact on the future of local churches. And I do not think that is universally kept in mind by these Reformed denominations, even though many of these problems have been well known for years. For if they did then they would be dealing with a bit more force with things such as student debt, and issues of disagreement with a particularly seminary. I remember attending a Southern California OPC presbytery meeting once. And there was a person who wanted to move from the URC and be licensed by OPC. This was a little more than two years ago. Anyway he expressed a view of Genesis one that was held to and taught by an OPC professor that he had. There was then an argument within the presbytery on this guy’s position and the candidate was not approved for licensure. People know of this OPC professor’s position on Genesis one. So why attack the poor kid, why not go after the professor which I think would be the responsible thing to do? Especially if the professor is in your own denomination? Is it laziness or cowardliness? Whatever it is shows the need of a denomination or presbytery to be more actively involved in what is being taught by seminaries, at least for the sake of students and the gospel itself.

 

[rpeters]

I wrote my dissertation on this topic! I have alot to say, but if anyone is interested in my dissertation email me. There is just too much to comment here!

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

The Confession is not as silent as some want to make it. I have been told that "I am Confessional" while they disagree with WCF Chapter 7 starting at point 1. There has been too much leniency on Covenant Theology. Sure there are places to question some things maybe. Especially when Scripture can bear a testimony. But I have not found any based upon chapter 7. And that has happened. If you want to know where I think things have gone astray you can read the Testimony of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. There is nothing in Chapter 7 where we have a disagreement. There is with many if they follow Klinean Theology.

Psa 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
Psa 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.

This is not Kline's interpretation of Moses. At least as it seems to be. A Covenant of Works?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

BTW, I was made a moderator of Patrick's Linked Reformed Theology discussion board. It was very good and very scholarly. I really appreciated a Pastor Win on the forum. I can't seem to locate the discussion now but we discussed this issue pretty indepth I thought. Maybe Patrick would lead us to it. There were some solid arguments on both sides. I have to admit that I am a 7/24 guy and think it is a terrible disturbing thought to be other. But then again I have grown less and less enthused by Kline as I have come to know his strangeness and thinking outside the box. I am all for considering things but Adam also considered thinking outside the box and it killed him. I can't say that is true for everyone who has done that. But I am not that impressed with Kline.