Presbyterians Turning Roman Catholic

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Arch2k

Puritan Board Graduate
On the recent thread VII and Roman Catholic Apologetics? I was reminded of Scott Hahn's and
Gerry Matatics' conversion from Presbyterianism to Roman Catholicism.

Scott Hahn did his internship here in Wichita at one of the local PCUSA churches, so I know of people who had interaction with some of the controversy. After being reminded of these guys, I decided to listen to a lecture or two by Hahn, and to be honest, it made me a little sick to my stomach.

How in the world can someone as "smart" as these guys make a switch like that?

Where in the world did they go wrong?
 
Obviously, it's not smarts that matter. They were given over, sad to say.

Roman Catholicism is strangely seductive. For awhile, before I was abruptly grabbed by the Holy Spirit, I was intrigued by the tradition, pomp, mystery, and old chants. I was a substitute organist in several Catholic churches and longed to hear a Latin mass.

But, after spending some time in a Catholic bookstore, I could not stand it. The superstition and foolishness jumped out at me at every turn.

Then I started reading Spurgeon, then Calvin, and there was no turning back.

In retrospect, however, I can still sense the siren call of the Roman Church. It's a call to put away your mind, your responsibilities to God, let super saints help you out, and submit to secret mysteries. The old Puritans who equated it with the whore of Babylon had it right. She seduces.

Vic
 
I don't know anything about those two gentlemen, but my mother has a membership in a PCUSA church and still considers herself to be Roman Catholic, a position with which the PCUSA church has no quarrel. :banghead:
 
Hahn's book Rome Sweet Home was not very good. It as very stream of consciousness. It sounded like something someone would dictate in a recorder for a secretary to type up so that the author could revise, except that it seems like it was never revised.

Anyway, he cited the usual suspects with Catholic converts, such as authority, the sacraments, apostolic succession, and the like. He also seemed to have held a Zwinglian view of the sacraments and when confronted with biblical texts that the sacraments actually do something, he seemed to see only two options (Catholicism or they do nothing). He did not seem famliar with reformed or Lutheran views. I am reminded of when Luther said, "I would rather drink blood with the papists than wine with the Zwinglians." This dichotomy seems to have nudged him over.

Also, at one point he recounts a discussion with John Gerstner where he depicts Gerstner as being at a loss to answer his questions. Of course, Gerstner is not around to defend himself any more.

Anyway, the whole thing is pretty sad. Sadder still is Matatics who has gone over to the traditionalist camp.
 
Rev 18:1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. 2 And he called out with a mighty voice,

"œFallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
3 For all nations have drunk
the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality,
and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her,
and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."
 
Obviously these guys were given over to the whore, but I am really wondering, for guys who knew the arguments, who studied the Westminster Confession etc., what kind of arguments would convince the likes of these guys?

Were they inticed by the devotion, the mystery, or where they convinced that sola scriptura really wasn't the way to go? :candle:

It's a sad story.
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Obviously these guys were given over to the whore, but I am really wondering, for guys who knew the arguments, who studied the Westminster Confession etc., what kind of arguments would convince the likes of these guys?

Were they inticed by the devotion, the mystery, or where they convinced that sola scriptura really wasn't the way to go? :candle:

It's a sad story.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Cor 4:4
 
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Rev 18:1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. 2 And he called out with a mighty voice,

"œFallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
3 For all nations have drunk
the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality,
and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her,
and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."



Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Cor 4:4


I see what you are saying, but it does not really answer the heart of Jeff's question. The Roman Catholics could quote the same scripture when asked why one of theirs converted to Protestantism.

What could convince a person who is educated in the reformed doctrines, that the synergistic, mystic, papal church is the true church?
 
Exactly Chris.

FYI, I found that James White has debated Gerry Matatics several times. I plan to download some of the debates and see exactly what these guys "think" they learned. :um:
 
What could convince a person who is educated in the reformed doctrines, that the synergistic, mystic, papal church is the true church?

I would imagine what convinced them is the same thing that convinces any unregenerate reprobate. Intellectual knowledge of a system of theology does nothing without a circumcised heart. Unbelievers cannot hold fast to a God they don't know. So, in this case, he went to the Whore along with the rest of the world.

It is pretty obvious why some are lured to Rome...they are unbelievers and that is a place that they congregate.
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Exactly Chris.

FYI, I found that James White has debated Gerry Matatics several times. I plan to download some of the debates and see exactly what these guys "think" they learned. :um:

That is good to know, I am curious.
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Exactly Chris.

FYI, I found that James White has debated Gerry Matatics several times. I plan to download some of the debates and see exactly what these guys "think" they learned. :um:

Goodness. Are you in for a laugh? Dr. White uses his kid gloves and absolutely demolishes Matatics. At several points, I was sincerely embarrassed FOR Matatics.
 
I think there is a real spiritual force behind this - although we Presbyterians don't like to talk about it, makes us sound like Pentecostals
 
i have a note that 12 PCA Teaching Elders have publically converted to Roman catholism over the last 25 years, but have never found confirming evidence. has anyone else seen numbers of this magnitude for the problem?
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Obviously these guys were given over to the whore, but I am really wondering, for guys who knew the arguments, who studied the Westminster Confession etc., what kind of arguments would convince the likes of these guys?

Were they inticed by the devotion, the mystery, or where they convinced that sola scriptura really wasn't the way to go? :candle:

It's a sad story.

Gerstner made it very clear that Hahn had no idea what the Reformed camp taught.
A lot of times switches like these are psychological.
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
On the recent thread VII and Roman Catholic Apologetics? I was reminded of Scott Hahn's and
Gerry Matatics' conversion from Presbyterianism to Roman Catholicism.

Scott Hahn did his internship here in Wichita at one of the local PCUSA churches, so I know of people who had interaction with some of the controversy.
I'm not familiar with these guys. At one time, were they well known in the reformed community? Were they pastors or seminary professors or something along those lines?
 
Originally posted by blhowes
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
On the recent thread VII and Roman Catholic Apologetics? I was reminded of Scott Hahn's and
Gerry Matatics' conversion from Presbyterianism to Roman Catholicism.


Scott Hahn did his internship here in Wichita at one of the local PCUSA churches, so I know of people who had interaction with some of the controversy.
I'm not familiar with these guys. At one time, were they well known in the reformed community? Were they pastors or seminary professors or something along those lines?

Here Greg Bahnsen's The Road to Rome. It is him at his rhetorical and analytical best.

[Edited on 3--23-06 by Draught Horse]
 
Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr
i have a note that 12 PCA Teaching Elders have publically converted to Roman catholism over the last 25 years, but have never found confirming evidence. has anyone else seen numbers of this magnitude for the problem?
I can't confirm your list. But if Scott Hahn is on it, you can strike his name off your list. Contrary to what Romanists claim, Hahn was never ordained as a PCA teaching elder.

DTK
 
Well said Vic !

Originally posted by victorbravo
Obviously, it's not smarts that matter. They were given over, sad to say.

Roman Catholicism is strangely seductive. For awhile, before I was abruptly grabbed by the Holy Spirit, I was intrigued by the tradition, pomp, mystery, and old chants. I was a substitute organist in several Catholic churches and longed to hear a Latin mass.

But, after spending some time in a Catholic bookstore, I could not stand it. The superstition and foolishness jumped out at me at every turn.

Then I started reading Spurgeon, then Calvin, and there was no turning back.

In retrospect, however, I can still sense the siren call of the Roman Church. It's a call to put away your mind, your responsibilities to God, let super saints help you out, and submit to secret mysteries. The old Puritans who equated it with the whore of Babylon had it right. She seduces.

Vic
 
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
...
Scott Hahn did his internship here in Wichita at one of the local PCUSA churches, so I know of people who had interaction with some of the controversy. After being reminded of these guys, I decided to listen to a lecture or two by Hahn, and to be honest, it made me a little sick to my stomach.

How in the world can someone as "smart" as these guys make a switch like that?

Where in the world did they go wrong?

Didn't Scott Hahn credit to Norman Shepherd for being instrumental in his conversion to Catholicism. I read something (sort of a autobiography) written by Hahn about the process and I think he mentioned Shepherd as being pivotal to it.

...

I found it here:
THE SCOTT HAHN CONVERSION STORY: Protestant Minister Becomes Catholic

During my third and final year at seminary, something happened that represented a crisis for me. I was studying covenant and I heard of another theologian studying covenant, a man by the name of Professor Shepherd in Philadelphia teaching at Westminster Seminary. I heard about Shepherd because he was being accused of heresy. People were suggesting that his heresy grew out of his understanding of the covenant. So I got some documents that he had written, some articles, and I read through them. I discovered that Professor Shepherd had come across the same conclusions that my research had led me to.
 
Normally that would carry wait but remember, it is coming from Scott Hahn. Plus, whatever Shepherd's faults, he attacks the heart of the roman system: human merit
 
Anthony,

You are correct. While I don't know Shepard's views all that well, his views were obviously bad enough to get him kicked out of Westminster.

Even if from a bad source (Hahn), it should definately be taken into account that he attributes at least part of his "conversion" to his Shepardian view of the covenant.

Even more relevant to us, is that if this IS the case, it makes church action on FV even more vital to the survival of the reformed church in America In my humble opinion.
 
Originally posted by Peter
Gerry Matatics is an interesting character. When he apostatized he was warmly received by Romish apologists such as Keating. Now guess what, he's a hyper- traditional Tridentinist and a sedevacantists, that is, he believes the Papal chair is vacant because VII was heretical.

http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/gerry.htm

It was funny when Mattatics and Manning debated Greg Bahnsen. Mattatic's views on Mary were so weird that not only Bahnsen took him to task, Fr. Manning did as well! Manning was weakening Mattatics case!

Mattatics is the most annoying of Roman apologists.
 
I'm listening to Bahnsen's lecture now--thanks, Jacob. My church is dealing with this presently, actually with a college student. Whoever said it was typically a psychological thing has my full agreement.
 
Yep, I'm sure some of the worst torments in hell await Mattatics a la 2 Pe 2:20-22, and Heb 6.

I remember that debate remotely. Didn't Bahnsen keep saying that Mattatics argued like a Presbyterian Catholic b/c Mattatics wattered down popish doctrine to make it more palatable? Quite the opposite now, Mattatics is a foam at the mouth traditionalist.
 
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