Principled politicians
- Thread starter scottmaciver
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bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
A principled politician? She probably won't last long, unfortunately.
scottmaciver
Puritan Board Sophomore
She's been around a long time. As far as her involvement in the EU parliament goes, she doesn't intend to last long, with the hope that the UK leaves the EU by the end of October.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Queen Ann is getting a lot of stick for comparing our political oppression by the EU to slavery, but that is a common rhetorical device in political discourse historically speaking. For instance, it was often argued in the past that a nation that did not make its own laws was a nation of slaves. The oppression of the UK by the EU, while not the same as actual chattel slavery, is comparable to slavery - especially as we are being held against our will.
crossbearer89
Puritan Board Freshman
It's not difficult to find principled politicians in America, even though most have some sort of blemish on their record (we all fall short). The problem with principled politicians is that they need to govern alongside others, many of whom are extremely unprincipled. This renders them ineffective since they are severely outnumbered. And though we may appreciate them, their work is often times merely symbolic or aspirational. When they are effective--when, by grace, there is a concentration of principled politicians working together (or politicians politicking)--good things can happen like the stream of pro life legislation that has been coming through the pipe lately.
Susan777
Puritan Board Sophomore
Wow! What a lady, what a speech! Even though her style of delivery would be mercilessly ridiculed in this country what she said was ”spot on”. I have to ask, even though off-topic, do you think Britain will actually be able to leave in October?
scottmaciver
Puritan Board Sophomore
I think that Boris Johnson is more likely to bring us out than Jeremy Hunt. After all, Hunt voted remain in 2016. The current situation is that the legislation states that we will leave the EU, either with or without a deal on 31 October.
The problem we have is the parliamentary arithmetic. We have a population, where the majority voted Brexit, but a parliament where the majority supported remaining in the EU. The EU are claiming that they won't renegotiate the treaty which Theresa May negotiated, which was rightly voted down 3 times by parliament, as it essentially kept us in the EU, Brexit in name only.
The other option is to leave with no deal, which prominent remainers are fighting against (See Here). In order to avoid no deal being blocked, the Prime Minister could prorogue parliament (See Here), which would suspend parliament, so we would simply leave on 31st, during that time.
Failing all that, we could end up with a General Election, which would likely change the parliamentary arithmetic, i.e. hopefully where a majority of MP's would be leavers, rather than remainers.
In short, the country was asked whether or not we wanted to remain in the EU. The political class didn't like the answer they got. They are doing their utmost to thwart the democratic will of the people. As it was recently said, "the betrayal of the many by the few!"
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
Seems like 'ol Britain is following in the paths of 1776 USA! Bravo!
I understand there are a number of complex matters. The relationship between Scotland and England (Scotland getting subsidiaries from the EU) and the Irish issue. The way the relationship between the UK and the EU has been set up is that there are multiple links/networks operating which makes it difficult untangling them all.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
I don't trust the 'establishment' to not move the goalposts. They've already done it once. I'll be pleasantly shocked if there is a simple majority in parliament willing to show a modicum of integrity.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
"Turn him to any cause of policy,
The Gordian knot of it he will unloose,
Familiar as his garter: that, when he speaks,
The air, a charter'd libertine, is still,
And the mute wonder lurketh in men's ears,
To steal his sweet and honey'd sentences"
And when:
"The French ambassador upon that instant
Craved audience; and the hour, I think, is come
To give him hearing: is it four o'clock?
...
Then go we in, to know his embassy;
Which I could with a ready guess declare,
Before the Frenchman speak a word of it."
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/henryv/full.html
Although we probably need to substitute 'German' for 'French' these days. But cut the Gordian knot; things should then unravel nicely.
That'd spoil the rhythm!
scottmaciver
Puritan Board Sophomore
This has gone slightly off thread, but to continue off thread!
This brief video is interesting, especially from Maajid Nawaz, who is a remainer. The discussion is about proroguing Parliament, and the Queen's involvement. If parliament is suspended, we will simply leave on 31st October, as parliament won't be in a position to oppose it. The video can be found Here.
This brief video is interesting, especially from Maajid Nawaz, who is a remainer. The discussion is about proroguing Parliament, and the Queen's involvement. If parliament is suspended, we will simply leave on 31st October, as parliament won't be in a position to oppose it. The video can be found Here.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
Rheinish, then.
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
I think that it would be grand, frankly, if BoJo, who will presumably become PM, prorogued Parliament if they refused to vote for "no deal." I don't believe Parliament will ever vote to leave: they won't approve a deal and certainly will not approve one on WTO terms.
I don't think that you'll get a deal out of the EU, but at least you have Ann, Nigel, and others there giving them grief and standing up for the UK. Ann's speech, and Nigel's reaction (!), did my heart good. At least you have some good MEPs!
You also have some good MPs but they're not in the majority. I sent Sir Bill Cash a note the other day encouraging him. He's a stalwart. I may have said this here before, but when I sent Rees-Mogg one a few years ago he responded to this American with a hand-written letter. I was delighted!
At any rate, I am both praying and cheering for a better day in the UK. Hang in there in these tough times that can be discouraging because they're not "business as usual." Be thankful that they're not, because the UK could use more turmoil and less business as usual if it is ever to come to a better day. How I pray for such for all of you there!
Peace,
Alan
I don't think that you'll get a deal out of the EU, but at least you have Ann, Nigel, and others there giving them grief and standing up for the UK. Ann's speech, and Nigel's reaction (!), did my heart good. At least you have some good MEPs!
You also have some good MPs but they're not in the majority. I sent Sir Bill Cash a note the other day encouraging him. He's a stalwart. I may have said this here before, but when I sent Rees-Mogg one a few years ago he responded to this American with a hand-written letter. I was delighted!
At any rate, I am both praying and cheering for a better day in the UK. Hang in there in these tough times that can be discouraging because they're not "business as usual." Be thankful that they're not, because the UK could use more turmoil and less business as usual if it is ever to come to a better day. How I pray for such for all of you there!
Peace,
Alan
Susan777
Puritan Board Sophomore
Would it be more advantageous to go the route of proroguing Parliament rather than call a general election? Would Boris Johnson actually do it and is there a precedent for this? Is it known what the Queen’s views on Brexit are? Is there still general support for it among the populace? Is there any possibility that the remainders (political class) could engineer another referendum and overturn it? Sorry for all the questions but all this is truly fascinating.
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
@Susan777
I don't think that a general election at this time is in the Conservative Party's interest. I also don't think it's in the interest of Brexit, as Parliament appears to be determined to stand in the way of implementing the Referendum of 2016 and I don't think a general election would change that.
Yes there is ample precedent for prorogation though the particulars here may be unique. What the Queen thinks and the undesirability of dragging her into a political quagmire are perhaps the chief arguments against it. I suspect that she thinks that the referendum, since it was held (by a huge margin of Parliament calling for it), should be implemented. But that's just my republican guess, though I've heard monarchists say the same.
I think that there is evidence for continuing strong support, and perhaps even increasing support, for Brexit. If there is a second referendum, it would have no appearance of fairness if it were something other than between deals, or between "stay" and "no deal," though all calls for a second referendum seem code for "stay." Fascinatingly, Corbyn has been historically a "leaver," though most of Labor (not Dennis Skinner--Old School!) is "remain."
One of the advantages of prorogation would be to stop the mouth of Speaker Bercow, who is quite partisan (he wants to remain and he hates Trump!) and always tiresome. I really would like to see him go for good and a fairer Speaker come into the chair.
Peace,
Alan
I don't think that a general election at this time is in the Conservative Party's interest. I also don't think it's in the interest of Brexit, as Parliament appears to be determined to stand in the way of implementing the Referendum of 2016 and I don't think a general election would change that.
Yes there is ample precedent for prorogation though the particulars here may be unique. What the Queen thinks and the undesirability of dragging her into a political quagmire are perhaps the chief arguments against it. I suspect that she thinks that the referendum, since it was held (by a huge margin of Parliament calling for it), should be implemented. But that's just my republican guess, though I've heard monarchists say the same.
I think that there is evidence for continuing strong support, and perhaps even increasing support, for Brexit. If there is a second referendum, it would have no appearance of fairness if it were something other than between deals, or between "stay" and "no deal," though all calls for a second referendum seem code for "stay." Fascinatingly, Corbyn has been historically a "leaver," though most of Labor (not Dennis Skinner--Old School!) is "remain."
One of the advantages of prorogation would be to stop the mouth of Speaker Bercow, who is quite partisan (he wants to remain and he hates Trump!) and always tiresome. I really would like to see him go for good and a fairer Speaker come into the chair.
Peace,
Alan
scottmaciver
Puritan Board Sophomore
Thanks for these thoughts Alan. Yes, Corbyn has to all intents and purposes become all that he ever stood against, for all these years, at least in relation to the question of the European Union. His party have forced him into a corner & he has capitulated, with personal ambition & the prospect of becoming PM the dominating consideration.
John Bercow has abused his position as speaker & his remainer sympathies are well known. As for Rees-Mogg, I am a big fan of his politics & a hand written letter a from him is fantastic.
What is interesting, is that MP's who have done their utmost to keep us in the EU & to reverse the result of the referendum, like to claim that to prorogue parliament would be undemocratic. They see no inconsistency in their position.
scottmaciver
Puritan Board Sophomore
I'll look forward to Trump & Johnson agreeing a free trade deal between the US & UK, once we have gained our sovereignty back from the EU, an unelected commission, to whom nobody can call to account. Trump's mum was born in my own Isle of Lewis & I believe he has strong sympathies towards the UK & would like to see us prosper.
The UK have become massively weak on the international stage. Similarly, we have become massively weak in spiritual terms. My hope & prayer is for freedom & progress on both fronts, once we finally leave the EU.
The UK have become massively weak on the international stage. Similarly, we have become massively weak in spiritual terms. My hope & prayer is for freedom & progress on both fronts, once we finally leave the EU.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Truly astonishing. While I obviously disagree with his religious views, JRM is a very remarkable man.
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