proving the Trinity

Discussion in 'Cults & World Religions' started by Preach, May 2, 2005.

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  1. Preach

    Preach Puritan Board Sophomore

    I am interacting with a JW. Nice guy. Please keep Randolph in prayer. I highly recommend Walter Martin's book "Kingdom of the Cults". I don't have the book but I have two of his tapes from MT. ZION www.mtzion.org I think.

    Walter Martin was (I think he's with the Lord) one of the best Chrsitians in defending orthodoxy against the cults. Fantastic stuff.

    He recommends the following order to deal with a JW. He says if you just start rattling off Trinity texts (ex. where all the Persons of the Godhead are mentioned in the same passage) it won't work.

    Here's the order:
    1) Show that you and the JW have common ground (the Bible).

    2) Define what you mean by Trinity

    3) Ask them that if the Bible taught the doctrine of the Trinity would they submit to that teaching. You may have to say it several different ways, but the average JW loves his/her Bible and will submit (it is their ultimate authority). Eventually, although they will say it can't teach the doctrine, they will probably say that they will submit (because they don't think we can prove the doctrine).

    4) Are there three Persons in the New Testament, and are they each called God? Let's look:
    Is there a Person called the Father, and is He identified as God? 2 Pet. 1:17
    At this point the JW will wholeheartedly agree.

    Is there a Person called the Son? Yes, the JW will agree. Is He identified as God? Exodus 3:10-14. Then show John 8:51-58. Then show John 10:29ff. Now I highly recommend that you get the tapes to deal with the JW's objection of John 8:58. Jesus reached into the common translation (the Septuagint) and took the Divine Name. The Jews, who understood the context and the culture, knew exactly what He meant. They accused Him of blasphemy and wanted Him dead.

    Either Christ was deluded, hallucinating, insane, a deceiver, or He was Who He said He was.
    The JW'S love the book of the "Revealtion of Jesus Christ". So turn to Rev. 1:8 God is identified as Alpha and Omega. The JW'S will agree. Then turn to Rev. 22: 7, 12, 13. Ask the JW Who is speaking? Whoever it is says that He is the Alpha and the Omega and that He is coming quickly. This is Jesus! Look at 22:16 It reads: "'I Jesus...'" He is the Alpha and Omega.

    Now go to 22:20. Jesus says that He is coming quickly. This is exactly what 22:7, 12 and 1:8 syas. He is the One Who is, was, and is to come.

    Go to Rev. 22:13 It reads that Jesus is the "first and the last". Go to 1:12-18. Jesus is the Son of man spoken of in Daniel. And this Son of man in 1:17 is the "first and the last". Then (just for a bit of fun), go to Isa. 44:6 (the JW'S love this verse-so do we!) It says that Jehova is the "first and the last". Now, how many firsts and lasts can there be? How many Alphas and Omegas can there be? To posit that there can be more than one is linguistic and exegetical suicide.

    Now, just for kicks and giggles, (and by the way, this next line of argument was admitted by a converted JW to have given him a lot of trouble when he was high up in the "organization" He said that when he asked his superiors about it, they ran for cover).

    Look at Hebrews 1:5-8. Herein we find that Jehova is commanding the angels to worship the Son. Moreover, Jehova calls the Son "God". Now flip over to Matt. 4:10. Jesus says that only God is to be worshipped! Look at Matt. 2:11. The wise men worshipped the Baby. The angels worshipped Christ too. Yet, only God can be worshipped.

    So, is there a Person called the Son and is He identified as Jehova? Yes.

    Is there a Person called the Holy Spirit and is He identified as God? Look at Acts 5:3-4. Herein we find that Annanias has lied to the Holy Spirit. Then Peter says that Annanias has "not lied to men but to God". You cannot lie to an inanimate object. You can only lie to personality. Look at Acts 13:1:2 Herein the Holy Spirit is speaking. Luke actually quotes the Holy Spirit's words. This is the ist person singular.

    To summarize: Is there a Person called the Father and is He identified as Jehova? Yes. Is there a Person called the Son and is He identified as Jehova? Yes. Is there a Person called the Holy Spirit and is He identified as Jehova? Yes.

    Now, how many Gods are there? Look at 1 Tim. 2:5 There is only one God.

    Conclusion: The doctrine of the Trinity is proven.


    Now, once you've done that (amidst the JW'S many objections), you are in a position to go to other "proof texts".

    Here's something new I learned. Check this out: Who raised Jesus from the dead?.....Look at Acts 3:26 (The Father raised the Son). Look at John 2:19-22 (Jesus raised Himself). Look at Romans 8:11 (the Holy Spirit raised Jesus). Now look at Acts 17:31 (God the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead).

    May this be an encouragement and strenghtening of our faith. And may God employ the argument as a means of salvation for so many that are "sitting in darkness and the shadow of death".
     
  2. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Not bad. I am not much of a Walter Martin fan, but I think that is a pretty good approach. I recommend the TAG approach--without the doctrine of the Trinity, you cannot make sense of the One and the Many.
     
  3. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    To defend Trinitariansim (actually, to go on the attack) from a worldview perspective, consider Ralph Smith's Trinity and Reality. He shows how non-Trinitarian worldviews are absurd.
     
  4. Poimen

    Poimen Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I have a tract that I compiled for JW's. If anyone would like a (free) copy, just ask! The only thing I would request is that if you hand it out please do not format the tract, but hand it out as is (except for the contact information where you may feel free to add whatever you like).

    Here is what the tract looks like without the formatting:

    GOD IN THE SCRIPTURES

    One God

    Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 44:6; Malachi 2:10; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Ephesians 4:5-6; James 2:19

    The Father is God

    John 6:27; John 20:17; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 4:6; Philippians 2:11; 1 Peter 1:2

    The Son is God

    Isaiah 9:6 (cf. Isaiah 10:21); Matthew 1:22-23 (compare Isaiah 7:14); John 1:1 ; John 12:44-45; John 14:9-11; John 20:28; Romans 9:5; 1 Corinthians 1:30 (compare Jeremiah 23:6); Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:3; 1 John 5:20

    1) He forgives sins, as only God can do

    Mark 2:5-7,10; Luke 5:20; Luke 7:48 (compare Exodus 34:6-7; Isaiah 43:25; Romans 4:7-8)

    2) Attributes ascribed to God are Christ's as well

    i. Holiness
    2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 7:26 (compare Leviticus 11:44-45; Isaiah 6:3)

    ii. Immutability
    Hebrews 1:11-12; Hebrews 13:8 (compare Numbers 23:19; Malachi 3:6)

    iii. Omnipotence
    Hebrews 1:3 (compare Job 37:23; Revelation 4:11, 7:12)

    iv. Omniscience
    Matthew 9:4; John 6:5-6,64; John 16:30; John 21:17 (compare Job 37:16;
    Psalm 139:1-6)

    v. Omnipresence
    Matthew 18:20; 28:20 (compare Psalm 139:7-10)

    vi. Creator
    John 1:3,10; Colossians 1:16 (compare Genesis 1:1)

    vii. Judge of All Men
    Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:22 (compare Genesis 18:25; Psalm 82:8)

    3) Christ is worshipped and prayed to

    Acts 7:59; John 5:23; Hebrews 13:21 (compare Philippians 4:20) If Christ is a mere man or a creation, then why is it that He is worshipped? (compare Jeremiah 17:5; Acts 10:25-26; Revelation 22:8-9)

    4) Christ is often referred to as Lord (the name that is given to God in the Old Testament)

    John 21:21; 1 Timothy 1:2; 2 Peter 3:2; Revelation 17:14; 19:16

    4) Jehovah's witnesses are Christ's witnesses

    Isaiah 43:10 (compare Acts 1:8)

    5) Christ's subordination is related to His incarnation and death, not His being

    2 Corinthians 8:9; Philippians 2:6-11; Hebrews 2:10,17

    The Holy Spirit is God

    Matthew 28:19; Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 2:11; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 2 Corinthians 13:14

    1) The words of Jehovah are the words of the Holy Spirit

    Jeremiah 31:33-34 (compare Hebrews 10:15-17); Psalm 95:7-11 (compare Hebrews 3:7-11); Isaiah 6:9-10 (compare Acts 28:25-28)

    2) The Holy Spirit is a Person not the will or power of God

    Genesis 1:2; Nehemiah 9:20,30; Psalm 106:33; Isaiah 63:10; Matthew 12:31-32; Luke 12:12; John 14:16,17-26 (compare 1 John 2:1); John 16:13-15; Acts 2:1-4; Acts 8:29; Acts 10:19-20; Acts 13:2; Acts 16:6; Romans 8:26; Ephesians 4:30; 2 Peter 1:20-21; Revelation 2:17

    Three Persons in the Godhead

    Matthew 3:16-17; Matthew 28:19; Luke 1:35; John 14:16-17; Romans 8:7-11; Romans 15:30; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Galatians 4:6; Titus 3:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2
     
  5. Poimen

    Poimen Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Just U2U if you want the tract. And Bobby: thanks for the summary.
     
  6. alwaysreforming

    alwaysreforming Puritan Board Sophomore

    Bobby,
    I love your zeal and heart for the JW's!

    The method you outlined above may not be "foolproof", but it sure is a heck of a start for getting them to reconsider their own beliefs. And the good thing is, if you happen to be conversing with a JW who actually is "open-minded", then what you have there just may be what causes them to really see the Truth.
    One of the problems you'll probably run into once the JW gets "too close to the Truth", is overturning all the "negative press" that is going on inside their brains, after all, they think Satan is the leader of Christianity. My advice is that once you've truly gotten them convinced on one particular point (especially one as important as you've outlined above), that would be a perfect time to show the deception inside their own organization so they can finally pin the tail on the right "donkey". (The Devil, of course, being the tail; the donkey being their WTBT Society).

    I just spoke with an ex-JW tonight via email (my ex-wife), so people like you Bobby really do make a difference eventually, in spite of the slow-goings in this type of conversion ministry. You are bringing the Lord much glory, my Brother! I know you've been dialoging with the JW's for quite a long time now, maybe here or in another thread you can relate some of the successes and difficulties you've had so that others might know what to expect should they find themselves in a similar witnessing opportunity.
     
  7. Preach

    Preach Puritan Board Sophomore

    Christopher,
    Thanks for the encouragement. It does mean a lot. The website that you gave me www.bibleca (I think), has been a tremendous help, along with your comments regarding the mindset of the JW.

    I'll try to update every so often regarding the ongoing dialogue.
    "In Christ",
    Bobby
     
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