Psychics/Fortune Tellers

[AnnaBanana]

I work at the local Library four days out of the week (this is not relevant but just thought I'd give you some background to build up my question, hehe). A girl, I believe she's around my age, started working there a few weeks ago, and she seems very nice/friendly. I have spoken to her about the Lord and she says that she goes to church every once and a while with her boyfriend, but mostly does at home studies.

Yesterday she came in eagerly waiting to tell me what happened earlier that morning. She said that (her dad had passed away last year) she felt it in her heart to go to the psychics across the street from work and she couldn't believe what happened. She walked in, filled out no papers (stating any type of history or questions that the psychic could use) and when the woman started to bring her back she goes "Wow! Did you loose your father last year? I can feel his presence in this room right now". She then began to say things that only she would know (this is all from her mouth) .


Here is my question... I didn't really know what to say? I hope I don't sound to naive and stupid but I really didn't. I do not believe in anything in that sort whatsoever: horoscopes, tarot cards, astrology, fortune tellers, palm readings and I made that absolutely clear to her
but... how can that be explained? Or rather, what could I have said to show that the Bible condemns these types of things? Do psychics get their information from satan?

I tried to do some reading on my own, and I saw this verse:

When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God. (Deut 18:9-13)

How would you have responded?

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Anna:

You are in the right place (Deuteronomy). Another place that speaks of the magical arts in the NT is in Acts 8 (Simon Magus). The Bible condemns the use of such, necromancy, and the like. Always. Everywhere.

All such is an attempt to enlist nefarious powers in our service rather than submitting to the divine power in whose service we should be. Did she ask you what you think? If not, you could have said, "may I tell you what I think?" and then have told her what you thought of what she did.

I may have said something like: "this is what is worthy of accepting, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. It is He that we should seek and to Him that we must submit, not the regions of the dead and him who revels in death." If she asked you how the medium knew this, you might tell her that you don't know (it could be a demon, a good guess, figuring that someone her age coming to see her who wasn't manifestly happy might have lost a parent, etc.). There are any number of possibilities. But God said don't do it and that should be enough.

Peace,
Alan

 

[Afterthought]

For your own knowledge of how it can be explained, look into "cold reading" and run a Google search for various other techniques "psychics" use. Be especially aware that you were not there and only have her remembered and interpreted experience of the event, and also that she was at least somewhat willing to believe (which is what psychics and mentalists exploit) by her actions in going.

However, the moral issue and answer that Dr. Strange presents above is far more important and better (and answers the main question of the OP).

 

[Dachaser]

I work at the local Library four days out of the week (this is not relevant but just thought I'd give you some background to build up my question, hehe). A girl, I believe she's around my age, started working there a few weeks ago, and she seems very nice/friendly. I have spoken to her about the Lord and she says that she goes to church every once and a while with her boyfriend, but mostly does at home studies.

Yesterday she came in eagerly waiting to tell me what happened earlier that morning. She said that (her dad had passed away last year) she felt it in her heart to go to the psychics across the street from work and she couldn't believe what happened. She walked in, filled out no papers (stating any type of history or questions that the psychic could use) and when the woman started to bring her back she goes "Wow! Did you loose your father last year? I can feel his presence in this room right now". She then began to say things that only she would know (this is all from her mouth) .


Here is my question... I didn't really know what to say? I hope I don't sound to naive and stupid but I really didn't. I do not believe in anything in that sort whatsoever: horoscopes, tarot cards, astrology, fortune tellers, palm readings and I made that absolutely clear to her
but... how can that be explained? Or rather, what could I have said to show that the Bible condemns these types of things? Do psychics get their information from Satan?

I tried to do some reading on my own, and I saw this verse:

When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God. (Deut 18:9-13)

How would you have responded?

We know that the Bible forbids us to get involved with anything like what you described, and would just use the opportunity to share that as a Christian, that you have access to the true Higher Power, Jesus, and the Real Spirit, the Holy Spirit, dwells and lives in you.

 

[Jack K]

I don't think you necessarily need to follow the typical Reformed instinct to begin by telling people how they're wrong. Yes, visiting a fortune teller is high on the list of sins, and it's good that you recognize this. But it sounds like your new friend has identified you as a person with whom she can share spiritual matters, and this is good—even if her ideas about the spiritual world are badly mistaken right now.

Like any unbelieving sinner, she doesn't need correction as much as she needs Jesus. So be a good listener. Don't be shocked if she speaks positively of things you know to be sin (unbelievers usually do). Get to know her, so you can offer her something better.

If it were me, I might notice how she visited a fortune teller and think, "I bet she's the type of person who would be open to being prayed for." So I might offer to pray for her. That's a great way to open a dialogue that will steer her toward Jesus and, in its time, repentance.

 

[arapahoepark]

With regard to your friend, have you watched The Mentalist?

 

[earl40]

The only caveat I would like to add, just for you, is that no demon whispered in her ear that her father died last year. I would qualify my statement with the general understanding that many believe fallen angels (demons) are doing such.

 

[Scott Bushey]

I have always wanted to open up a Psalm reading parlor.

Sign outside: "Psalms read"
Come in an let me read your Psalm!

Participant: Can u read my palm?
No, I can read a psalm for you! Here, how about Psalm 51?

"1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness:

According unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity,

And cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions:

And my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,

And done this evil in thy sight:

That thou mightest be justified when thou speakest,

And be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;

And in sin did my mother conceive me."



The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 51:1–5.

 

[RamistThomist]

My own take:
1) Unlike some disciples of David Hume, I believe the supernatural is real and I don't have to have empirical laboratory evidence in order to verify it (though I probably could marshal it).
2) I shrug off a lot of claims like that. I believe demons are around mediums like that, but unless I am actually talking to the demon in a deliverance ministry, I normally reserve judgment either way.

 

[Dachaser]

I don't think you necessarily need to follow the typical Reformed instinct to begin by telling people how they're wrong. Yes, visiting a fortune teller is high on the list of sins, and it's good that you recognize this. But it sounds like your new friend has identified you as a person with whom she can share spiritual matters, and this is good—even if her ideas about the spiritual world are badly mistaken right now.

Like any unbelieving sinner, she doesn't need correction as much as she needs Jesus. So be a good listener. Don't be shocked if she speaks positively of things you know to be sin (unbelievers usually do). Get to know her, so you can offer her something better.

If it were me, I might notice how she visited a fortune teller and think, "I bet she's the type of person who would be open to being prayed for." So I might offer to pray for her. That's a great way to open a dialogue that will steer her toward Jesus and, in its time, repentance.

She just might be open to having her shared the Gospel now, as Jesus is the ultimate source of the afterlife.

 

[Dachaser]

My own take:
1) Unlike some disciples of David Hume, I believe the supernatural is real and I don't have to have empirical laboratory evidence in order to verify it (though I probably could marshal it).
2) I shrug off a lot of claims like that. I believe demons are around mediums like that, but unless I am actually talking to the demon in a deliverance ministry, I normally reserve judgment either way.

What is a deliverance ministry?

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

All the "medium" needed was an accomplice to get something as simple as her car tag number, etc. and google away while whispering into a wireless ear-bud. Mediums have their own information swapping services and dbases. James Randi and others have written lots on how they operate and exposing their tricks and conceits. I agree with others, pray for this friend, and be a godly example.

 

[Dachaser]

All the "medium" needed was an accomplice to get something as simple as her car tag number, etc. and google away while whispering into a wireless ear-bud. Mediums have their own information swapping services and dbases. James Randi and others have written lots on how they operate and exposing their tricks and conceits. I agree with others, pray for this friend, and be a godly example.

True, as there was and still is a Larry Popoff, who for years now been milking people out of money by claiming God spoke to him about their needs, while actually they read off info on a card to him by the ear bud.
Most of the psychic/medium stuff is bunk, just done as the mentalist did, but there are few cases where it seems Satanic operation is involved.

 

[RamistThomist]

What is a deliverance ministry?

It is removing demonic presences from people who are being demonized. I am avoiding saying "exorcism" or "demon possession" because those terms have spatial and Roman Catholic connotations that aren't helpful.

 

[Dachaser]

It is removing demonic presences from people who are being demonized. I am avoiding saying "exorcism" or "demon possession" because those terms have spatial and Roman Catholic connotations that aren't helpful.

Christians cannot be demon possessed, so you deal with the unsaved?

 

[RamistThomist]

Christians cannot be demon possessed, so you deal with the unsaved?

I specifically said that I am not saying "demon possessed." Demonized is totally different. But yes, these have usually been non-Christian.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I specifically said that I am not saying "demon possessed." Demonized is totally different. But yes, these have usually been non-Christian.

Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.

 

[Ben Zartman]

^^Ryan, while Justification is a sovereign work of God that happens in a moment (when He declares one righteous), sanctification--the putting away of sin--is a life-long process. One does not immediately (or perfectly) stop sinning in this life. Far better than to torture yourself by wondering whether mum was saved because she had remaining sin is to trust that whatever God did--whether to save her or not, it was right, and it was good. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Hope thou in God, believing that He is the fountain of all good.

 

[RamistThomist]

Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.

Without speaking dogmatically, it seems commonsense from a Christian perspective that we can be attacked by the enemy. Demonization is when these attacks are intensified and when we give the enemy a foothold (which is biblical language). Can believers give the enemy a foothold? Paul seems to think that is possible.

I don't see that as the same thing as "demon possessed" in the ghostbusters sense of the word.

 

[Edm]

I passed by a building this week in southern Ohio that had a billboard outside advertising a psychic conference and had a number to call to register. I found it humorous and wondered if they had a RSVP.

 

[earl40]

Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.

Having hope that a loved one is in heaven is found by looking for evidence that they had faith, and not looking at the sin they had in their life. Take for instance my mother and father. They were Roman Catholic and thought as many RC's think on many issues, which grieved me to no end. Though the were such I knew they loved Jesus and ultimately had faith alone in Him for any thing they did while here on earth. I understand this is a tough subject and I am sad for many of my brothers and sisters in Christ, in that they may have had a parent, child, or other loved one pass without Jesus which was obvious. With the unobvious loved one look to Jesus, and realize He is mighty and is able to save wretches like us who trust in Him.

 

[OPC'n]

My first question to her would have been, "what were the questions on the paper you filled out?" That's how the psychic knew she lost her father. They know which questions to ask to trick people into thinking they know unknowable info. It might not be obvious to the untrained person, but they have honed their skills. It's all garbage in reality and it's very sinful to engage in.

 

[AnnaBanana]

Thank you everyone for the advice and suggestions, they are very much appreciate. I was being a little bit hard on myself these past few days for not knowing what to say.

This may also be changing the topic of the thread a little bit but, I see myself sometimes putting so much pressure on trying to say the right thing (while speaking of the Lord) that it makes me shriek with fear that I'll do or say something wrong. I have been praying that I would allow the Holy Spirit to guide my words and actions in these situations, not to mention every situation but these specifically, because I'm always worried about sounding "legalistic" or "holier than thou". Jack K, I bolded what you said below because I think that is where I am at right now with her. I'm listening to her and letting her tell me these things, knowing that she is just as open to me hearing the Gospel and speaking of the Lord.

I don't think you necessarily need to follow the typical Reformed instinct to begin by telling people how they're wrong. Yes, visiting a fortune teller is high on the list of sins, and it's good that you recognize this. But it sounds like your new friend has identified you as a person with whom she can share spiritual matters, and this is good—even if her ideas about the spiritual world are badly mistaken right now.

Like any unbelieving sinner, she doesn't need correction as much as she needs Jesus. So be a good listener. Don't be shocked if she speaks positively of things you know to be sin (unbelievers usually do). Get to know her, so you can offer her something better.

If it were me, I might notice how she visited a fortune teller and think, "I bet she's the type of person who would be open to being prayed for." So I might offer to pray for her. That's a great way to open a dialogue that will steer her toward Jesus and, in its time, repentance.

 

[Dachaser]

Sorry to get off topic, and we can start another thread if necessary, but I've been thinking about this recently because my mom passed away a little over a week ago. She professed to be a Christian and loved to talk about God, but she could not overcome her addiction. I'm trying to find some sort of hope that she is in heaven, but it's very difficult. My grandmom believes she was overcome by the enemy, and in the flesh she was not herself, and was basically a victim of the devil but is now at peace. I know this is not what we see biblically, but is this too far of a stretch to believe? I know this is a sensitive topic and gentleness would be appreciated, but I do need to know the truth no matter what it is. Thanks.

IF you mother received Jesus as her lord/Messiah, and accepted that He paid the sin debt in her place, and believed unto Him as being raised up, than per the scriptures she was indeed saved in Him.

 

[Dachaser]

Without speaking dogmatically, it seems commonsense from a Christian perspective that we can be attacked by the enemy. Demonization is when these attacks are intensified and when we give the enemy a foothold (which is biblical language). Can believers give the enemy a foothold? Paul seems to think that is possible.

I don't see that as the same thing as "demon possessed" in the ghostbusters sense of the word.

I agree with you that even Christians can be oppressed by Satanic things, due to them foolishly submitting themselves to the occult, walking in bondage of various kinds etc, but the cure for that would be to have them confess and repent of those sin activities, and claim the promise of the scriptures that he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all sins.

 

[Dachaser]

Thank you everyone for the advice and suggestions, they are very much appreciate. I was being a little bit hard on myself these past few days for not knowing what to say.

This may also be changing the topic of the thread a little bit but, I see myself sometimes putting so much pressure on trying to say the right thing (while speaking of the Lord) that it makes me shriek with fear that I'll do or say something wrong. I have been praying that I would allow the Holy Spirit to guide my words and actions in these situations, not to mention every situation but these specifically, because I'm always worried about sounding "legalistic" or "holier than thou". Jack K, I bolded what you said below because I think that is where I am at right now with her. I'm listening to her and letting her tell me these things, knowing that she is just as open to me hearing the Gospel and speaking of the Lord.

Just keep the scriptures foremost, and trust that the Holy Spirit will guide you into what to say and when, for it is the work of the Lord Himself in and through us to make the right things get said at the right time.

 

[RamistThomist]

I agree with you that even Christians can be oppressed by Satanic things, due to them foolishly submitting themselves to the occult, walking in bondage of various kinds etc, but the cure for that would be to have them confess and repent of those sin activities, and claim the promise of the scriptures that he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all sins.

No argument there, but psychologically some people have trauma of which they may not always be aware. This is often the case in sexual abuse victims, satanic abuse victims, CIA MK-ULTRA types, and so on. You don't always need a full exorcism to deal with it, but the issues might go beyond "you need to read the bible more."

We agree that Jesus saves sinners, but we also know that people bring their baggage into the church.

 

[Dachaser]

No argument there, but psychologically some people have trauma of which they may not always be aware. This is often the case in sexual abuse victims, satanic abuse victims, CIA MK-ULTRA types, and so on. You don't always need a full exorcism to deal with it, but the issues might go beyond "you need to read the bible more."

We agree that Jesus saves sinners, but we also know that people bring their baggage into the church.

Good to hear that you are biblical based in this type of ministry, as my prior experiences have been with those in Charismatic Chaos that were anything but scripture based.

 

[RamistThomist]

Good to hear that you are biblical based in this type of ministry, as my prior experiences have been with those in Charismatic Chaos that were anything but scripture based.

To each his own experiences. Most of those in more recognized deliverance ministries (Wimber, Moreland et al) are quite sane and even analytically rational in their approaches.

 

[Dachaser]

To each his own experiences. Most of those in more recognized deliverance ministries (Wimber, Moreland et al) are quite sane and even analytically rational in their approaches.

That would not be John Wimber, would it?