earl40
Puritan Board Professor
That is a very good point.
Psychics/Fortune Tellers
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That is a very good point.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Let's look at it this way: let's say person X exercises a gift. Person Y comes to him and says, "If you do that, then you are implying that I am quenching the Spirit. You better stop that."
Free Christian
Puritan Board Sophomore
I found this interesting. Partial healing!?
http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/1990/04/john-wimber-changes-his-mind/
http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/1990/04/john-wimber-changes-his-mind/
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
That's a great article. It completely refutes the idea that Wimber was a name it/claim it. It also sets forth what guys like Wimber and Moreland believe about this kind of healing.
It's also important to note that Wimber never says, "Be ye healed." He just prays over them and lets the people know what is and isn't going on.
I think a lot of Reformed people are hung up on thinking everyone who isn't Macarthur is necessarily Benny Hinn on this subject.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I would question #4 in the article. It seems at least in the article, that neither Wimber nor the author of the article, understood what was at stake in the claim "sufficiency of Scripture."
And the criticism in #5 is borderline cheating.
Lutheranism teaches error in its view of the Lord's Supper, yet we all say the Reformation is inspired by the Spirit of God. Ergo, a movement that taught error was inspired by the Spirit of God!
(drops mic)
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Allow me to change your quote to the intent of "quenching The Spirit" as per the point made earlier. "Let's say person X exercises a gift. "Person Y comes to him and says, "If you do that and I do not, then you are implying that I am quenching the Spirit. You better stop that because you are being deceived by satan."
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Two things:
1) Person X never said that. That was Person Y's projection
2) I honestly don't care what Person Y may or may not be doing. I'm out here doing kingdom work, testifying against intellectual demonic strongholds (2 Cor. 10).
2.1) As to being deceived by Satan, well, y'all can say that. I'm not too bothered either way since I know it is a false claim.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
And I know any report of healing today like Jesus and The Apostles did is a false claim.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I guess I have nothing else to say. You've already made a universal judgment regarding any type of evidence. I'll quote my David Hume passage when I get back to my desktop
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Hume's epistemology is a tough pill to swallow.
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-church-of-hume.html
It forms a strong presumption against all supernatural and miraculous relations, that they are observed chiefly to abound among ignorant and barbarous nations; or if a civilized people has ever given admission to any of them, that people will be found to have received them from ignorant and barbarous ancestors, who transmitted them with that inviolable sanction and authority, which always attend received opinions. When we peruse the first histories of all nations, we are apt to imagine ourselves transported into some new world; where the whole frame of nature is disjointed, and every element performs its operations in a different manner, from what it does at present. Battles, revolutions, pestilence, famine and death, are never the effect of those natural causes, which we experience. Prodigies, omens, oracles, judgements, quite obscure the few natural events, that are intermingled with them. But as the former grow thinner every page, in proportion as we advance nearer the enlightened ages, we soon learn, that there is nothing mysterious or supernatural in the case, but that all proceeds from the usual propensity of mankind towards the marvellous, and that, though this inclination may at intervals receive a check from sense and learning, it can never be thoroughly extirpated from human nature. It is strange, a judicious reader is apt to say, upon the perusal of these wonderful historians, that such prodigious events never happen in our days. The advantages are so great, of starting an imposture among an ignorant people, that, even though the delusion should be too gross to impose on the generality of them (which, though seldom, is sometimes the case) it has a much better chance for succeeding in remote countries, than if the first scene had been laid in a city renowned for arts and knowledge. The most ignorant and barbarous of these barbarians carry the report abroad. None of their countrymen have a large correspondence, or sufficient credit and authority to contradict and beat down the delusion.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Not knowing if Hume believes of the biblical accounts of what we are speaking of I withhold judgment of this quote. To be clear I believe Our Lord did in the past perform signs and wonders, which have ceased, and because of this I am not a partial cessationist like many, which in my opinion is untenable to the very definition of being a cessationist.
True, but he does seem to hold that we need to preach and teach to him what was the full gospel, that meant in addition to salvation, we can and should expect healing and miracles in our lives, as Acts was still for today.
I would think that is the standard view of non Charismatic reformed and Baptist though concerning how to view Acts.
One can still hold to God being able to do miracles and healings even today as part of His sovereign workings, but not buy into the Charismatic viewpoint that basically everything that happened in Acts is still norm for today.
Do you hold then that the Lord cannot do any miracles or healing or visions at all today?Not knowing if Hume believes of the biblical accounts of what we are speaking of I withhold judgment of this quote. To be clear I believe Our Lord did in the past perform signs and wonders, which have ceased, and because of this I am not a partial cessationist like many, which in my opinion is untenable to the very definition of being a cessationist.
I believe that God can still at times divine heal, but the normal method is through doctors and medicine, and would never say God could not do anything any more period.
Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
Good thought. Another interesting thought is where blasphemy of the Holy Spirit fits into the picture. If the work is really from God and we ridicule it as false or satanic, wouldn't that fit in as blasphemy against the Spirit?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Not knowing if Hume believes of the biblical accounts of what we are speaking of I withhold judgment of this quote. To be clear I believe Our Lord did in the past perform signs and wonders, which have ceased, and because of this I am not a partial cessationist like many, which in my opinion is untenable to the very definition of being a cessationist.
I commend your consistency.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I appreciate that. Thanks.
I think that would be when the Pharisees had the Lord right there in the flesh, and saw His miracles, and called him used of Satan, and that is not the same as not realizing that God is doing something, or not seeing that it is really of Satan. Do not believe really saved persons can commit that sin.
Cedarbay
Puritan Board Freshman
I've been thinking about this for several days. You already said exactly what needed to be said in denouncing these affiliations as ungodly. Good for you and well done.
I worked for several years in the health food industry which seems to draw people of the most dark and desperate beliefs. Anything goes. One woman I worked very closely with believed she was a white witch and spoke daily of spells she was casting. I finally asked to be transferred away from her, because it distracted me from my work, which is important to note for you. We are employed to work and not to evangelize or prosthelytize per se. Let your work ethic and holy living be the Christian witness.
While we love our neighbor and those in unbelief, we do not fellowship and spend much time with them without pastoral care for ourselves, and even meeting with that person in pairs.
Haeralis
Puritan Board Freshman
I am sorry to say that a nominal Christian in my family believes that being a "psychic" is a spiritual gift, despite its emphatic condemnation in the pages of the Scriptures. Her response was simply that "it doesn't matter what the Bible says" because God wouldn't give anyone the capacity to speak to the dead unless he wanted them to do it. Please keep her in your prayers.
Casting out demons is the children's bread. Jesus was clear. Not for the dogs, but for the children. Not for the unsaved but for the elect.
Having said that, there was a whole lot of stuff way back in my early charismatic days that we called demons, that was just sin and flesh. Probably almost all is. But you can't rule out the occasional truly demonic situation in one of God's children.
Wayne Grudem used to go to Wimber's church and dedicated his ST to eight people including Wimber who is Calvinist to at least some degree. Not that either of them are what the PB typically represents, but in no way is Wimber the Word of faith movement either.
Having said that, there was a whole lot of stuff way back in my early charismatic days that we called demons, that was just sin and flesh. Probably almost all is. But you can't rule out the occasional truly demonic situation in one of God's children.
Wayne Grudem used to go to Wimber's church and dedicated his ST to eight people including Wimber who is Calvinist to at least some degree. Not that either of them are what the PB typically represents, but in no way is Wimber the Word of faith movement either.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Right. And Wimber is actually quite reticent to call things "demons."
The only real demonic experience I ever had was when I was reading a neo-Marxist interpretation of Hegel. I have since thrown that book away.
Dachaser-
Just so you understand, most of the people who believe the NT gifts of the spirit operate today are in charismatic churches that are third wave, prophetic-apostolic, word of faith, classic Pentecostal, and various fringe groups.
There is a small subset- we frequently refer to ourselves as continuationists or continuists- who want to be sound doctrine, and who do not see the operation of the gifts in church services or daily life the way a typical charismatic in the former group might. It is a lot to explain, but the more popular names like Wimber, Grudem, Piper, Sam Storms, Poythress, etc, are fully committed to the innerancy and sufficiency of scripture in a way that those caught up with end time prophets and "words" are not. Some are not in confessional churches, but some like Poythress are in the OPC and I knew plenty in the PCA.
Just so you understand, most of the people who believe the NT gifts of the spirit operate today are in charismatic churches that are third wave, prophetic-apostolic, word of faith, classic Pentecostal, and various fringe groups.
There is a small subset- we frequently refer to ourselves as continuationists or continuists- who want to be sound doctrine, and who do not see the operation of the gifts in church services or daily life the way a typical charismatic in the former group might. It is a lot to explain, but the more popular names like Wimber, Grudem, Piper, Sam Storms, Poythress, etc, are fully committed to the innerancy and sufficiency of scripture in a way that those caught up with end time prophets and "words" are not. Some are not in confessional churches, but some like Poythress are in the OPC and I knew plenty in the PCA.
When my daughter- who is 21 and gloriously walking with the Lord- was 14, we came home to a voice message that her birthmom was alive, had contacted the agency in Romania and wanted contact. My daughter had cried herself to sleep for years wondering why her Mom abandoned her and if she was alive. Her almost first three years were spent in the hell of a Romanian orphanage with the neglect and partial starvation common there.
Long long story, but eventually she went over and met the Mom, Aunt, brother, and cousin, and it went great. But at first she was slashing her arms and body up, and in counseling for two years at CCEF not doing well, followed by two months at a Christian live in facility. It did break the cutting addiction, and by the way 20% of teen girls cut. I've met eight Christian girl cutters since my daughter started, so be aware and alert.
Anyway, one day when she was maybe 16 I was home with her and her bloody two inch gashes in the forearms which used to make me want to pass out, and I sat her down and talked about how deep down all people know that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, and only the blood of Jesus can wash us clean and set us free, and a cutter is trying to shed their own blood and be their own atonement, and it is a counterfeit.
Her whole face changed, ( usually needy, in pain, beaten down) and the darkest thing looked at me out of her eyes and said in a deep low man's voice "shut up" and she slammed out of the room.
I didn't do any of the binding stuff or talking to a demon, we just kept speaking truth and it got worse before it got better. I was aware for a long time of a demonic presence that I had to battle with speaking the truth. But don't try to tell me it wasn't a demon. You could feel it, you could see it, and it is like the prophets of Baal when these kids slash themselves. They are temporarily possessed. And they may truly belong to the Lord in the middle of it.
Long long story, but eventually she went over and met the Mom, Aunt, brother, and cousin, and it went great. But at first she was slashing her arms and body up, and in counseling for two years at CCEF not doing well, followed by two months at a Christian live in facility. It did break the cutting addiction, and by the way 20% of teen girls cut. I've met eight Christian girl cutters since my daughter started, so be aware and alert.
Anyway, one day when she was maybe 16 I was home with her and her bloody two inch gashes in the forearms which used to make me want to pass out, and I sat her down and talked about how deep down all people know that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, and only the blood of Jesus can wash us clean and set us free, and a cutter is trying to shed their own blood and be their own atonement, and it is a counterfeit.
Her whole face changed, ( usually needy, in pain, beaten down) and the darkest thing looked at me out of her eyes and said in a deep low man's voice "shut up" and she slammed out of the room.
I didn't do any of the binding stuff or talking to a demon, we just kept speaking truth and it got worse before it got better. I was aware for a long time of a demonic presence that I had to battle with speaking the truth. But don't try to tell me it wasn't a demon. You could feel it, you could see it, and it is like the prophets of Baal when these kids slash themselves. They are temporarily possessed. And they may truly belong to the Lord in the middle of it.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I knew plenty in the PCA also, but that was because many people in the PCA are also Arminian and credo baptist. I have seen very few confessional people in the PCA and the numbers continue to dwindle (in my opinion). Blame it on entertainment and various holiday festivities. I believe Rome is even getting on the band wagon in a similar fashion today.
Perhaps not, but he did seem to have some confusing theology in this area.
I am not against the Lord doing in His sovereignty at times miracles and divine healings today, but would caution those that you listed here, as I do see them as being Christians, having read their works, especially Dr Grudem ST, but still very concerned that they have seemed to open themselves up to this kind of charismatic theology.
Their thinking seems to open the door to the scriptures not being the fully sufficient and infallible guide to us today,as we still need to have at times other things of the Spirit happening also.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
There seems to be a lot of "seems" in that post. That's more anecdotal than anything resembling an actual, logical argument.
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