Would you agree with the main point, about being concerned with too much of a deviation from the scriptures?
Psychics/Fortune Tellers
- Thread starter AnnaBanana
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I have problems with Wimber myself about some things, and with Grudem as well. I would find other works to give people. I just don't want you to think that anybody who believes God still does "extraordinary" things at times today is the same as the whacky TV preachers.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Why not? As the material read on Dr Grudem, and in his otherwise decent ST in the area of the Holy Spirit and His operation seemed to be making the scriptures not all sufficient?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
No, they do not seem (there is that pesky word again) to be making the Scriptures insufficient. Maybe you can make a logical argument. The Scriptures are sufficient. But the key question is "Sufficient to what end?" For example, the Scriptures aren't sufficient in teaching me how to perform open-heart surgery.
I think what David may be trying to get at is that the Scriptures are sufficient for such things as guidance and for teaching us how to think about demons as described in the gospels (sorry if this isn't your focus David but it is mine [emoji4]). The things Wimber et al teach about dealing with demons and "hearing from the Lord" are unscriptural. As David has pointed out, the events of this nature described in the gospels and in Acts are descriptive; they definitely teach us about God, but they aren't prescriptive for our practice or our understanding about how we are to 'deal with Satan;' the epistles are.
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Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
I think what David may be trying to get at is that the Scriptures are sufficient for such things as guidance and for teaching us how to think about demons as described in the gospels (sorry if this isn't your focus David but it is mine). The things Wimber et al teach about dealing with demons and "hearing from the Lord" are unscriptural. As David has pointed out, the events of this nature described in the gospels and in Acts are descriptive; they definitely teach us about God, but they aren't prescriptive for our practice or our understanding about how we are to 'deal with Satan;' the epistles are.
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That's an interesting thought. If I may ask, using the Bible, how did you come to that conclusion? Thanks.I think what David may be trying to get at is that the Scriptures are sufficient for such things as guidance and for teaching us how to think about demons as described in the gospels (sorry if this isn't your focus David but it is mine). The things Wimber et al teach about dealing with demons and "hearing from the Lord" are unscriptural. As David has pointed out, the events of this nature described in the gospels and in Acts are descriptive; they definitely teach us about God, but they aren't prescriptive for our practice or our understanding about how we are to 'deal with Satan;' the epistles are.
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You just stated here far better than I could what my thoughts were on this issue.
Ryan, I knew the answers I'd gotten from third wave Pentecostalism and charismaticism would not suffice and God was gracious to help me. I was given a large amount of time to study the Scriptures for several years. I saw where those teachings regarding guidance and demonology, to name two, were being wrongly lifted out of their context from the Scripture. (I found, of course, good teaching on the topic.) The gospels and Acts are largely narrative; they tell the great deeds of God through Christ and the Holy Spirit through the times of the apostles, directly guiding them, giving them power to cast out demons, etc. But then, when you come to the didactic portion of the NT, the epistles, you see no instruction to the church or expectation that we will perform (or need to perform) such deeds as were performed by Christ and the apostles. I believe the testimony of Scripture is that Christ accomplished a great victory over Satan at the cross, and the apostles were commissioned to 'wrap it up,' so to speak. After their time, such activity and direct guidance ceased, as did signs and wonders accompanying the ministry.
So whatever Satan's activity in the world today beyond the insight given us in the epistles, the weapons of our warfare don't include direct dealings with Satan. We are certainly not to be ignorant of his schemes. But the epistles tell us how we are to strive against Satan's devices and it includes prayer, striving against sin by the Spirit, perseverance in the faith, submission to God and his word, and so on. As far as guidance, God gives wisdom through his word and works through our decisions and actions; through providential dealings he gets us where we need to be.
Here's a MLJ quote that kind of sums it up: "If I might summarize all these dangers, it is the danger of isolating a text or an idea and building up a system around it, instead of comparing Scripture with Scripture. It is the seeking of a short cut in the spiritual world... We must reject anything which is not based soundly upon the teaching of the Epistles. We must be very careful that we do not take an incident out of the Gospels, and weave a theory around it... we must realize that our standard... is to be found in the Epistles." D.M. Lloyd-Jones, Knowing the Times, page 11
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
The Scriptures are sufficient for teaching about demons. They teach us to cast out and pray against demons (spiritual warfare), yet Reformed do not do that.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I thank God for such.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
But, you know, the Scriptures do mention that as a reality.
TheOldCourse
Puritan Board Sophomore
That's precisely the point in contention.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
By "They" Imeant "Scriptures," in case that was unclear. I am not setting forth a manifesto for exorcisms. My point was that Wimber's spirituality wasn't as wacky as it seemed, especially in light where some Reformed deny the reality of demonic warfare, pace the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 6.
TheOldCourse
Puritan Board Sophomore
Right, the contentious point is that the Scriptures teach that there is a continuing duty to cast out demons. I don't mean to wade too deeply into this but Ephesians 6 certainly doesn't teach that--you must import that concept into Paul's teachings on spiritual warfare from elsewhere. It's not as if Reformed cessationists just ignore the passage.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I didn't say Ephesians 6 said that. I meant that Ephesians 6 implies demonic warfare.
I didn't say there was a continuing duty to cast out demons. I don't think every Christian will be in a position to always be casting out demons. I simply deny the disconinuity that cessationists assume.
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