Question 59 of the Children's Catechism

[raderag]

[quote:30a5f24299]A. The painful and shameful death of the cross.


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Q. 55. Who will be saved?
A. Only those who repent of sin, believe in Christ, and lead holy lives.


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Q. 56. What is it to repent?
A. To be sorry for sin, and to hate and forsake it because it is displeasing to God.


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Q. 57. What is it to believe or have faith in Christ?
A. To trust in Christ alone for salvation.


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Q. 58. Can you repent and believe in Christ by your own power?
A. No; I can do nothing good without the help of God's Holy Spirit.


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[b:30a5f24299]
Q. 59. How can you get the help of the Holy Spirit?
A. God has told us that we must pray to him for the Holy Spirit.
[/b:30a5f24299]


CATECHISM FOR YOUNG CHILDREN
An Introduction to the Shorter Catechism
[/quote:30a5f24299]

This is suposed to be based on the Shorter, but it seems to be saying that we pray to "recieve the Holy Spirit." Is that wrong, especially in context with the other questions? Has this document ever been approved by a council or synod? I know the PCA uses it. It is mostly good though.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Luke 11:
9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
11 If a son asks for bread[4] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?
12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, [b:60466bdf7f]how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" [/b:60466bdf7f]

 

[raderag]

[quote:2f330ce5d0][i:2f330ce5d0]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:2f330ce5d0]
Luke 11:
9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
11 If a son asks for bread[4] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?
12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, [b:2f330ce5d0]how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" [/b:2f330ce5d0] [/quote:2f330ce5d0]

Isn't that 'giving' as a futher impowering? I don't think it means that an unregenerate gets the Holy Spirit by praying, does it? Q59 seems to imply that.

 

[Ianterrell]

Can't the unregenerate ask for God to change their hearts?

 

[raderag]

[quote:c59f4b333f][i:c59f4b333f]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:c59f4b333f]
Can't the unregenerate ask for God to change their hearts? [/quote:c59f4b333f]

They can ask, but God isn't required to do it. The carnal mind is enmity against God, it cannot be subject to His will. In other words,, the unregenerate would not or could not ask God to do this in a sincere manner until they are born again.

 

[Ianterrell]

So if the unregenerate man cannot ask God to do something completely out of the right heart, they shouldn't ever ask God to do something?

And should we not pray because God is not required to do something?

Matt's has some excellent articles about the Puritan's view of this issue. It's on the Puritan Evangelism page or something like that.

 

[raderag]

[quote:2f096f9c5b][i:2f096f9c5b]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:2f096f9c5b]
So if the unregenerate man cannot ask God to do something completely out of the right heart, they shouldn't ever ask God to do something?

And should we not pray because God is not required to do something?

Matt's has some excellent articles about the Puritan's view of this issue. It's on the Puritan Evangelism page or something like that. [/quote:2f096f9c5b]

No, that isn't what I meant. I have read his articles on the Puritan view. Anyway, the idea that we pray to receive the Holy Spirit is an evangelical view, not a reformed one. The reformed view is that we are born again, and then repent and believe.

 

[Ianterrell]

No it isn't. None of the Puritan's would have been against the idea of an unregenerate man praying that God send his spirit to change his heart. They encouraged it rather.

 

[raderag]

[quote:8d8298cd3b][i:8d8298cd3b]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:8d8298cd3b]
No it isn't. None of the Puritan's would have been against the idea of an unregenerate man praying that God send his spirit to change his heart. They encouraged it rather. [/quote:8d8298cd3b]

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but the point is that we are not saved by us praying to God for the Holy Spirit. Do we agree?

If not, could you provide evidence?

 

[raderag]

[quote:ae151e7656][i:ae151e7656]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:ae151e7656]
No it isn't.[/quote:ae151e7656]

No, what isn't?

You do agree that regeneration preceeds faith?

 

[Ianterrell]

Brent reread my posts. I think I was pretty clear. But I will reiterate. Is it wrong for unregenerate man to pray for God to grant them regeneration? Wouldn't it in fact be a good thing?

 

[Ianterrell]

"I'm not disagreeing with you here, but the point is that we are not saved by us praying to God for the Holy Spirit. Do we agree? "

Ok now we're cookin with gas. So if you agree, then the your problem with the catechism is that it seems to suggest our prayers will save us?

[Edited on 5-25-2004 by Ianterrell]

 

[raderag]

[quote:94b5f673e3][i:94b5f673e3]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:94b5f673e3]
Brent reread my posts. I think I was pretty clear. But I will reiterate. Is it wrong for unregenerate man to pray for God to grant them regeneration? Wouldn't it in fact be a good thing? [/quote:94b5f673e3]

Well, is the act wrong in itself? Of course not. Can it be out of any true love toward God? I don't think so. This would deny total depravity. Certainly God could use a prayer like this, but it is far more likely that someone praying this already had their heart changed.

The important question would be is God bound by the prayer of a dead man?

 

[raderag]

[quote:92665bc8e1][i:92665bc8e1]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:92665bc8e1]
"I'm not disagreeing with you here, but the point is that we are not saved by us praying to God for the Holy Spirit. Do we agree? "

Ok now we're cookin with gas. So if you agree, then the your problem with the catechism is that it seems to suggest our prayers will save us?

[Edited on 5-25-2004 by Ianterrell] [/quote:92665bc8e1]

Right. I think that is the problem. The childrens catechism is supposed to be an introduction to the Shorter, but I can't find anything like this in the confession, the longer, or the shorter catechism.

 

[Ianterrell]

I can see your point then.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Gentlemen, the thing you must remember is that God works through our actions. We teach our children to pray these things, not because the prayers themselves will acquire it, but because God works through the prayers. They are instrumental means and an expression of faith. And we have no reason to doubt that God will answer such a request for the help of the Holy Spirit. He promised that if we ask he will give. These are promises meant to strengthen faith and acknowledge our dependence on God. So even if a child is unregenerate at the time, I would still encourage him to ask for the help of the Holy Spirit, just as I would tell him to cry out to Jesus to save him from his sins. They may not possess faith now, but they may later, and who knows when that true faith will erupt when he is praying these things? We are to obey and trust and act understanding that it is God who works in us the will to do those things.

 

[Ianterrell]

I don't disagree Patrick, not one bit.

 

[raderag]

[quote:82be72a97f][i:82be72a97f]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:82be72a97f]
Gentlemen, the thing you must remember is that God works through our actions. We teach our children to pray these things, not because the prayers themselves will acquire it, but because God works through the prayers. They are instrumental means and an expression of faith. And we have no reason to doubt that God will answer such a request for the help of the Holy Spirit. He promised that if we ask he will give. These are promises meant to strengthen faith and acknowledge our dependence on God. So even if a child is unregenerate at the time, I would still encourage him to ask for the help of the Holy Spirit, just as I would tell him to cry out to Jesus to save him from his sins. They may not possess faith now, but they may later, and who knows when that true faith will erupt when he is praying these things? We are to obey and trust and act understanding that it is God who works in us the will to do those things. [/quote:82be72a97f]

Thanks, and I think you make some great points. Perhaps my overreaction to the evangelical sinner prayer has caused me to overlook the importance of praying for help from the Holy Spirit.