Question about animals
- Thread starter cih1355
- Start date
- Status
Zenas
Snow Miser
The only source we have would suggest a strong no.
There seems to be three categories of creations dilneated in Scripture: ethereal (angels/demons), physical (animals) and hybrids possessing both natures (humans). Angels are no more physical than animals are angelic, and we seem to be the only exception to the creative distinction. The idea is best outlined in a Lewis quote, which I have forogtten and do not have.
There seems to be three categories of creations dilneated in Scripture: ethereal (angels/demons), physical (animals) and hybrids possessing both natures (humans). Angels are no more physical than animals are angelic, and we seem to be the only exception to the creative distinction. The idea is best outlined in a Lewis quote, which I have forogtten and do not have.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Eccl. 3.21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Fisher's Catechism:
Fisher's Catechism:
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
Greetings cih1355!
I'll take a stab at it. First biblical for the soul part, then philosophical for the thought processes.
In Gen 2:7 it reads "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The animals were called into being and they appeared in the creation, i.e. Let the earth bring forth the living thing according to his kind, cattle, and that which creepeth, and the beast of the earth according to his kind, and it was so. (Gen 1:24). The after his kind, or its kind is relevant. God breathed life into us, and not the animals. We are made in the image of God, but the animals are made after their kind. So they probably do not have a 'soul'. The Bible is not explicit on such things, so we have to use some logic and deduct our best judgment, so I am not speaking ex cathedra here.
For the rest of your question, the thoughts, intentions, or will, we have to turn to theology's handmaiden, philosophy to deduce some thoughts. The way our thought processes work. We receive perceptions from our senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell). This is the raw material we get and we share this part with the animals. Humans take those raw perceptions and we turn them into concepts. Then with new information, we refine our concepts (this is part that the animals can't do) so that we integrate more information and expand our concepts. That's the higher thought processes that seperates humans from animals. They work on an instinctual level. However, there perceptions are far greater than ours. They can see better, smell better, hear better than us. So they have an advanage over us in these areas. We have to build tools to do what they can do naturally. They can be trained to do repeditive motions and actions. Even humans who don't train there brains operate on an animal level (look at the kids who listen to rap music, or go to public school. They almost have an anti-conceptual mentality!) Will is a another matter. They do have that part, kind of. i.e., find food, smell deer, chase deer, kill deer, eat, eat, eat would think the wolf. whereas we would think, "I'm hungry, what should I have, cereal, pop-tarts, or fry some eggs?".
I saw on your profile page that you are 8 yrs old, so I hope this helps. This is the cliff notes version. The bible isn't clear on your question, but it's a great way to learn how to use the bible as a starting point in all our knowledge. God Bless!
I'll take a stab at it. First biblical for the soul part, then philosophical for the thought processes.
In Gen 2:7 it reads "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The animals were called into being and they appeared in the creation, i.e. Let the earth bring forth the living thing according to his kind, cattle, and that which creepeth, and the beast of the earth according to his kind, and it was so. (Gen 1:24). The after his kind, or its kind is relevant. God breathed life into us, and not the animals. We are made in the image of God, but the animals are made after their kind. So they probably do not have a 'soul'. The Bible is not explicit on such things, so we have to use some logic and deduct our best judgment, so I am not speaking ex cathedra here.
For the rest of your question, the thoughts, intentions, or will, we have to turn to theology's handmaiden, philosophy to deduce some thoughts. The way our thought processes work. We receive perceptions from our senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell). This is the raw material we get and we share this part with the animals. Humans take those raw perceptions and we turn them into concepts. Then with new information, we refine our concepts (this is part that the animals can't do) so that we integrate more information and expand our concepts. That's the higher thought processes that seperates humans from animals. They work on an instinctual level. However, there perceptions are far greater than ours. They can see better, smell better, hear better than us. So they have an advanage over us in these areas. We have to build tools to do what they can do naturally. They can be trained to do repeditive motions and actions. Even humans who don't train there brains operate on an animal level (look at the kids who listen to rap music, or go to public school. They almost have an anti-conceptual mentality!) Will is a another matter. They do have that part, kind of. i.e., find food, smell deer, chase deer, kill deer, eat, eat, eat would think the wolf. whereas we would think, "I'm hungry, what should I have, cereal, pop-tarts, or fry some eggs?".
I saw on your profile page that you are 8 yrs old, so I hope this helps. This is the cliff notes version. The bible isn't clear on your question, but it's a great way to learn how to use the bible as a starting point in all our knowledge. God Bless!
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
Evangelical philosopher J.P. Moreland does suggest that animals have souls of sorts. Admitting that animals do not have human souls, in their book Beyond Death, Gary Habermas and J.P. Moreland point out, "It wasn't until the advent of seventeenth-century Enlightenment … that the existence of animal souls was even questioned in Western civilization. Throughout the history of the church, the classic understanding of living things has included the doctrine that animals, as well as humans, have souls" (p. 293). These souls are finite, however, and cease to exist when the animal dies. His conclusion was drawn from his analysis of the words for animals in Genesis and Revelation.
Interesting.
Interesting.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Evangelical philosopher J.P. Moreland does suggest that animals have souls of sorts. Admitting that animals do not have human souls, in their book Beyond Death, Gary Habermas and J.P. Moreland point out, "It wasn't until the advent of seventeenth-century Enlightenment … that the existence of animal souls was even questioned in Western civilization. Throughout the history of the church, the classic understanding of living things has included the doctrine that animals, as well as humans, have souls" (p. 293).
Interesting.
I would respond to that with the words of your avatar.
yeah DMcFadden. (I was asked to change mine waah.)
Denton Elliott
Puritan Board Freshman
I would say that the Bible actually divides animals into kinds, those with the breath of life and those without. So accordingly, animals that breath air are a little "higher" than ones that don't.
Now, only mankind has a spirit/soul that endures for all eternity (in the likeness and image of God). This means we are special from all other created things and animals!
So do animals go to heaven!? I truly don't know and I believe the Bible is silent on this...but maybe your pets will be with you?
Now, only mankind has a spirit/soul that endures for all eternity (in the likeness and image of God). This means we are special from all other created things and animals!
So do animals go to heaven!? I truly don't know and I believe the Bible is silent on this...but maybe your pets will be with you?
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
J.P. Moreland is a philosopher at Southern California's Biola/Talbot. He is a Dallas ThM, USC PhD who has written hundreds of journal articles, books, etc. A most prolific guy. He is Arminian, Vineyard leaning, and yes, he did stir up a hornets nest with his somewhat misunderstood comments at the ETS meeting last November 21 (Postcard from San Diego: Fighting 'Bibliolatry' at the Evangelical Theological Society | Liveblog | Christianity Today)
I didn't say I agreed with him . . . just found it "interesting" that one of evangelicalism's top thinkers made the observation. By the way Daniel, I think you responded before seeing my edited post that these are not "immortal" souls.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
SRoper
Puritan Board Graduate
The ancients would be very confused if you told them animals don't have souls. I mean they breathe and they're animated, right? Of course they have souls! As pointed out earlier, Ecclesiastes is pretty clear that animals have souls of some kind.
According to Rev. 22:15 there are no dogs in heaven.
According to Rev. 22:15 there are no dogs in heaven.
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
I just asked my cat if she is an intelligent, conscious, soulful being. She said no.
Southern Presbyterian
Puritan Board Doctor
Well, there you have it. Straight from the horse's... errr... cat's mouth.
And truer words were never spoken by man nor beast.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Wilhelmus a'Brakel, The Christian's Reasonable Service, Vol. 1, pp. 310-311:
What about Isaiah 65?Even if the Bible is silent on this... we can still deduce a reasonable answer by pulling some concepts from what the Bible is not silent about.
1) I'm pretty sure the Bible teaches the "restoration of ALL things" Acts 3:21
2) God is extravagantly gracious... "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him..."
3) It is certain that the ancients, like Isaiah understood the future Kingdom to be "Earth Restored" - not a cosmic worship service with harps and clouds, etc... you know the image.
Read this section from Isaiah... no one can dispute the context is in reference to the "New Heavens and New Earth"...
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
“I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
“No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
“They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
“They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
“They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,
And their descendants with them.
“It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.
“The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.
From this text, I cannot understand how biblical scholars - or some of you distinguished gentlemen - can come to the conclusion (and sometimes so concretely) that animals will not be apart of the Eternal Kingdom. I think the nature of our great God should cause us to lean to the side of grace, rather than "human-inclusivism". Hey... I think I just came up with a new theological term??
So, here's my answer to my son when his dog dies... "Kam, we don't know for sure if we'll see Max in Heaven, but I'll tell you what... I wouldn't put it past our amazing God. He cares for even the birds, he cares for you, and I know he cares about Max too... if you want to pray for God to resurrect Max, than, come on... let's pray."
Our God is good.... and His power is limitless.
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
No claim to animals having immortal souls here. But, my dog, Mac, has considerably more sense to fulfill his God-given role than many of the people in my former mainline denomination.
Plus, when I listen to lectures on Calvinism, Christian philosophy, and such on my iPod (while exercising on the treadmill), he sits attentively and "listens" along. At times, he tilts his head and seems to want to add to the discussion.
He looked quite dapper at my son and daughter-in-law's wedding reception in his tux, don't you think?
Plus, when I listen to lectures on Calvinism, Christian philosophy, and such on my iPod (while exercising on the treadmill), he sits attentively and "listens" along. At times, he tilts his head and seems to want to add to the discussion.
He looked quite dapper at my son and daughter-in-law's wedding reception in his tux, don't you think?
Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
Hail and Well Met Sixdayz!
I had to reply to - From this text, I cannot understand how biblical scholars - or some of you distinguished gentlemen - can come to the conclusion (and sometimes so concretely) that animals will not be apart of the Eternal Kingdom. I think the nature of our great God should cause us to lean to the side of grace, rather than "human-inclusivism". Hey... I think I just came up with a new theological term??
We were not discussing that animals will be apart of the Eternal Kingdom, but rather do animals have souls? And yea, it's Human-inclusivism because Jesus was a human. Yea, the whole universe gets restored, but the discussion was about souls, thoughts, intentins and wills. Sorry, but i had to put in my 2 cents. We even may have dinasaurs in 'heaven' when we get there. Yea, i know, looking into a kids face dripping with tears can be tough. Just wanted to clarify the discussion. God Bless.
I had to reply to - From this text, I cannot understand how biblical scholars - or some of you distinguished gentlemen - can come to the conclusion (and sometimes so concretely) that animals will not be apart of the Eternal Kingdom. I think the nature of our great God should cause us to lean to the side of grace, rather than "human-inclusivism". Hey... I think I just came up with a new theological term??
We were not discussing that animals will be apart of the Eternal Kingdom, but rather do animals have souls? And yea, it's Human-inclusivism because Jesus was a human. Yea, the whole universe gets restored, but the discussion was about souls, thoughts, intentins and wills. Sorry, but i had to put in my 2 cents. We even may have dinasaurs in 'heaven' when we get there. Yea, i know, looking into a kids face dripping with tears can be tough. Just wanted to clarify the discussion. God Bless.
Hey Grymir,
I was responding to this kind of hard line thinking...
Therefore, all ideas of an animal heaven are wrong.
I don't think we can make the connection of "animals do not have eternal souls... therefore they will not be heaven"... I just don't think that kind of reasoning works. That's all I was trying to get across.
Also - it is very clear that animals have souls or spirits... whatever you want to call it. However, only Man was made in the image of God, and therefore, only Man is eternal. But, you are right, that is another issue entirely...
I consider animals to be apart of creation, which will be restored. Including their souls... there's no reason why we cannot hope, or even expect that God will ressurect the souls of some...
"Elect animals"
If earthly paradise had fruits and animals for the pleasure of man and if our relationship to our pets is, in some way, an echo of that first arrangement between man and beast, it appears that paradise restored might be very "natural" and "physical" as well; including gardens and animals where we can walk with God in the cool of the day.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Perhaps, but those would surely be different animals from the ones that have died.
Sixdayz - thanks, i missed that line. Poodles will never be among the Elect animals!
Hey! You've been listening to too much Ken Hamm!!!
Denton Elliott
Puritan Board Freshman
I believe there is evidence in the Bible that lions and lambs will indeed be in Heaven! From this I would infer that animals will indeed be present in Heaven. I believe the Bible is silent regarding our particular earthly pets being restored in Heaven
Maybe they will though?
I definitely wouldn't start a new denomination over it though!
Nor would I start tithing to PETA! 
Maybe they will though?
I definitely wouldn't start a new denomination over it though!
Nor would I start tithing to PETA! 
- Status
