Question about something our Pastor said in two sermons...

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augustacarguy

Puritan Board Freshman
Our Pastor recently said that believers will have their sins exposed for all to see on the last day. He followed it up the next week with the same comment, made even more emphatically. He said that we will be ashamed, but saved nonetheless. Several folks have asked me about this comment. I thought I'd ask it here.

Our Pastor is a good Pastor, and if he's wrong, I would simply chalk it up as that. No huge deal. We are members of a good PCA church. I also could be wrong, as well. I just ask for my own knowledge, he correct? Will we be subject to the humiliation, embarrassment of sins that have been covered by our Savior? Have our sins not been removed? Romans 4:8


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ProtestantBankie

Puritan Board Freshman
I would disagree but many would agree!

Thomas Brooks deals with this question in "Apples of Gold" which is an excellent book that I have read.

He opposes it because

1) In Matthew 25, Christ brings out only the positive for the sheep.
2) Christ declares in John 5 that his people will not be judged.
3) There are numerous examples of sin being "forgotten" or "covered" in the scriptures.

and he has other reasons!
 

Ed Walsh

Puritan Board Senior
believers will have their sins exposed for all to see on the last day

I disagree:

John 5:24 (KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Christians, like all men, will be judged by our works. However, we will be commended for what we did right. No mention of wrongdoing will be made. Our good works are worked into us by grace. Notice also that we will have no consciousness of doing those good works, but in our own eyes we will consider ourselves as unprofitable servants.

Matthew 25:33-40
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
 

Edward

Puritanboard Commissioner
You probably should ask him, and not us, what his thoughts are on this.

He may well have in mind Matthew 12:36 "I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak" (For our KJVers, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. "

or perhaps 1 Cor. 4:5 " Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart." (KJV "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts"

or 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[a] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (Not as well supported in the KJV - "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
 

Jack K

Puritan Board Professor
If our sins are made known, it will not be in a way that brings the children of God shame, but rather in a way that brings Christ glory.
 

augustacarguy

Puritan Board Freshman
Thank you. Yes, Edward, I do plan on asking him. As I hope I stated, this isn't about a gotcha thing, it was just confusing to me, and I thought I'd get some others' opinions.


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Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
Yeah, I see a picture of great joy and vindication for believers on the last day. Not a day of shame. I don't know why the Lord would bring shame upon those who have been clothed in Christ. Although, there definitely is a system of rewards that must come into place.
 

greenbaggins

Administrator
Staff member
I would disagree also with what your pastor said. What about Romans 8:1, such an important passage? What about Psalm 103, where our sins are removed from us as far as the east is from the west? In Revelation 20, the unrighteous are judged according to the book of deeds, but the elect are judged according to the book of life.
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
The Apostle Paul in Romans 2:16, repeats this theme when he speaks of a day, “when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ…”


King Solomon attests to this, all the way back in the Old Testament, in Ecclesiastes 12:14, “For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” All the things that we’ve hidden in our lives, these things are not hidden to God.

Paul, writing to the church...
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
 

Contra_Mundum

Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Staff member
Pergy,
The fuller context indicates the referents "we" of v10 are fluid. Paul passes back and forth between WE meaning the whole body, WE in reference to the ministry (very clear in v12). But the question is, whether the "every one" of v10 is by implication "of us," or whether that "every one" is ALL FLESH.

JFB commentary:
Receive - his reward of grace proportioned to "the things done," etc. (2Cor.9:6-9; 2Jn.1:8): the saved may have a greater or less reward, according as he lives to, and labours for, Christ more or less. Hence, there is scope for the holy 'ambition' (note, 2Cor.5:9; Heb.6:10). This verse guards against supposing that all share in the house "from heaven" (2Cor.5:1-2). A searching judgment shall sever the bad from the good, according to their respective deeds (Eph.6:8; Col.3:25), the motive being taken into account, not the mere external act; faith and love to God are the sole motives recognized as sound (Mt.12:36-37; Mt.25:35-45).

Done in his body. The Greek may be, 'by the instrumentality of the body' [dia tou soomatos]; but the English version is legitimate (cf. Greek, Rom.2:27). Justice requires that essentially the same body, the instrument of the unbeliever's sin, should be the object of punishment. The unbeliever's own sin he shall "receive" as its punishment (Jer.2:19): the good deeds of the righteous shall in part be their reward (Is.3:9-11; Rev.22:11-12).​

I agree with the commentator that Paul broadens his perspective here. "We... all" and "each one" is as wide as the whole world, and proves the contrast between those who are set to inherit a "spiritual body" and others who will not. Why? Because the contrast between those judged righteous in Christ (who is the terrible Lord, v11) and those who will be judged according to pervasive sinfulness, irrespective of the merits of their works considered of themselves.

The proposal found in the OP is that there is some "shame" due on the last day to believers that are insufficiently "good." I think, along with the majority of our comments here, that we should guard against that view. It is the praise of the Lord, and greater praise, that ought to be the drive of our Christian life.
 

Ryan&Amber2013

Puritan Board Junior
Pergy,
The fuller context indicates the referents "we" of v10 are fluid. Paul passes back and forth between WE meaning the whole body, WE in reference to the ministry (very clear in v12). But the question is, whether the "every one" of v10 is by implication "of us," or whether that "every one" is ALL FLESH.

JFB commentary:
Receive - his reward of grace proportioned to "the things done," etc. (2Cor.9:6-9; 2Jn.1:8): the saved may have a greater or less reward, according as he lives to, and labours for, Christ more or less. Hence, there is scope for the holy 'ambition' (note, 2Cor.5:9; Heb.6:10). This verse guards against supposing that all share in the house "from heaven" (2Cor.5:1-2). A searching judgment shall sever the bad from the good, according to their respective deeds (Eph.6:8; Col.3:25), the motive being taken into account, not the mere external act; faith and love to God are the sole motives recognized as sound (Mt.12:36-37; Mt.25:35-45).

Done in his body. The Greek may be, 'by the instrumentality of the body' [dia tou soomatos]; but the English version is legitimate (cf. Greek, Rom.2:27). Justice requires that essentially the same body, the instrument of the unbeliever's sin, should be the object of punishment. The unbeliever's own sin he shall "receive" as its punishment (Jer.2:19): the good deeds of the righteous shall in part be their reward (Is.3:9-11; Rev.22:11-12).​

I agree with the commentator that Paul broadens his perspective here. "We... all" and "each one" is as wide as the whole world, and proves the contrast between those who are set to inherit a "spiritual body" and others who will not. Why? Because the contrast between those judged righteous in Christ (who is the terrible Lord, v11) and those who will be judged according to pervasive sinfulness, irrespective of the merits of their works considered of themselves.

The proposal found in the OP is that there is some "shame" due on the last day to believers that are insufficiently "good." I think, along with the majority of our comments here, that we should guard against that view. It is the praise of the Lord, and greater praise, that ought to be the drive of our Christian life.

Amen. Well said.
 

Parakaleo

Puritan Board Sophomore
Read from 1 John this morning and thought of this thread.

"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears we may have confidence and not shrink from Him in shame at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him. 1 John 2:28-29

Such a typical contrast in John. He goes from his desire that we would have peace and confidence in our election straight to a test or indicator that we are indeed born of Him. The aim is that we would look at our lives and ask, "Do I know that He is righteous? Does my life bear out the truth that His righteous will is my highest ambition?" We are called to ask these questions while in a place of security, abiding in Him, with confidence that we will not be put to shame at His coming.
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
On the Day of Judgment, it appears that all the works of all the people in the world will be judged. This means that the sins of believers will also be judged. This means that all th secret things of even believers will be brought to light and exposed and judged.

I want to believe that this is not so, but I need more convincing:


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (5:10)

Driving Paul’s noble ambition was the knowledge that there would be a penetrating uncovering of the depths of his heart by the Lord Himself. That will take place in the future when believers must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ. The strong terms must and all stress the inevitability and comprehensiveness of this event. That knowledge produced in Paul strong motivation to please God in this life.

In 1 Corinthians 3:11–15:

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.



https://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ041813/will-god-punish-the-evil-deeds-of-believers


Jonathan Edwards might provide a way out:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/puritan-favorites/jonathan-edwards/sermons/the-final-judgment/

The good works of the saints will also be brought forth as evidences of their sincerity, and of their interest in the righteousness of Christ. As to their evil works, they will not be brought forth against them on that day. For the guilt of them will not lie upon them, they being clothed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. The Judge himself will have taken the guilt of their sins upon him. Therefore their sins will not stand against them in the book of God’s remembrance. The account of them will appear to have been canceled before that time. The account that will be found in God’s book will not be of debt, but of credit. God cancels their debts, and sets down their good works, and is pleased, as it were, to make himself a debtor for them, by his own gracious act.

John appears to be addressing his little children (believers) here when he writes this verse:
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. (1 John 2:28 RSV)

Many commentaries seem to treat these "little children" as those who will finally be found out that they were not truly little children at the day of Judgment, but as imposters will be condemned, instead. Barne's Notes says:

We may have confidence - Greek, boldness - παῤῥησίαν parrēsian. This word is commonly used to denote openness, plainness, or boldness in speaking, Mark 8:32; John 7:4, John 7:13, John 7:26; Acts 2:29; Acts 4:13, Acts 4:29; 2 Corinthians 3:12; 2 Corinthians 7:4. Here it means the kind of boldness, or calm assurance, which arises from evidence of piety, and of preparation for heaven. It means that they would not be overwhelmed and confounded at the coming of the Saviour, by its being then found that all their hopes were fallacious.

And not be ashamed before him at his coming - By having all our hopes taken away; by being held up to the universe as guilty and condemned. We feel ashamed when our hopes are disappointed; when it is shown that we have a character different from what we professed to have; when our pretensions to goodness are stripped off, and the heart is made bare. Many will thus be ashamed in the last day, Matthew 7:21-23; but it is one of the promises made to those who truly believe on the Saviour, that they shall never be ashamed or confounded. See the notes at 1 Peter 2:6. Compare Isaiah 45:17; Romans 5:5; 1 Peter 4:16; Mark 8:38.

Is there any proof of this?

It appears the text seems to read that some "little children" might be ashamed and lack confidence at the day of Judgment. Is it possible that some believers will be saved, though humbled at the day of judgment, based on these texts I have quoted above?
 

Ed Walsh

Puritan Board Senior
I want to believe that this is not so, but I need more convincing:

My sins are gone. Really gone! I have the righteousness of Christ. I am as guiltless as Jesus Himself. See my simple post #3 for the short answer. All men will be judged according to their works. I will be too. But my shabby works are accepted, by the God who loves me, as perfect. For them and them alone I will be judged. I am free!

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Hope the Lord reveals this to you brother.

Sorry to be so bold. I never said anything quite like this before. But it’s true. If the Church would come to understand this, she could transform the world. The gospel is, after all, good news. And we have a very Great Commission. But, a view of Christ’s work that doesn’t understand that His blood covers all sin is an insult to the God that loved us before the foundation of the world.

From Fisher's Catechism on Shorter Catechism:
Q. 28.WHEREIN CONSISTS Christ’S EXALTATION?

I love Question 115. below

Q. 110. What is the blessed sentence that shall be pronounced upon the saints?
A. “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,” Matt. 25:34.

Q. 111. For what reason will this sentence be pronounced first?
A. Because the saints are to sit in judgment, as Christ’s assessors, against wicked men and apostate angels, 1 Cor. 6:3, 4.

Q. 112. Upon what footing or foundation will this sentence pass?
A. Upon the footing of free grace alone, reigning through the imputed righteousness of the Surety, unto eternal life, Rom. 5:21.

Q. 113. Is it not said, Rev. 20:13, that they are “judged every man according to their works?”
A. The sentence passes upon the saints, ACCORDING to their works, as flowing from a heart renewed and sanctified; but neither for their works, nor for their faith, as if eternal life were in any way merited by them, Gal. 3:18; for the kingdom is said to be prepared for them, they inherit it as children, Rom. 8:17; but do not procure it to themselves, as servants do their wages, Col. 4:1.

Q. 114. Are not good works mentioned as the ground of the sentence, Matt. 25:35, 36 — “I was a hungered, and ye gave me meat” &c.?
A. These good works are mentioned, not as grounds of their sentence, but as evidences of their union with Christ, and of their right and title to heaven in him, John 15:5, 8; even as the apostle says in another case, of the unbelieving Jews, 1 Cor. 10:5 — “With many of them God was not well pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness:” their overthrow in the wilderness, was not the ground of God’s displeasure with them, but the evidence of it.

Q. 115. Will there be any mention made of the sins of the righteous?
A. It appears not; “In that time, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none: and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found,” Jer. 5:20. “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth,” &c. Rom. 8:33, 34.
 
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Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
Ed,

If all works are judged, this won't merely be good works, but bad as well. If some are saved, but as if through fire, this appears to acknowledge that some believers' works will be shown as straw at the Last Day. If there are degrees of reward and punishment given out, then it appears that many with religious titles will be shown not to be doing service matching those titles on the Last Day. Are Christians also to be accountable for every idle word we speak as well? I see no qualifier delineating this as only applicable to the unsaved.

I am not sure why knowing your view would transform the world any more than a view that says that we are all accountable for all actions, good and ill on the last day.

I agree with Jack's assessment that, "If our sins are made known, it will not be in a way that brings the children of God shame, but rather in a way that brings Christ glory." But this is different than saying that our sins will not be made known or accounted for....a belief for which I'd like to believe, but need more proof.
 

JimmyH

Puritan Board Senior
The good news as I understand it is that our sins are forgiven. Washed in His blood. At the same time our works will be judged with fire. Wood, hay, or stubble will be burned up. Works that can pass through the fire will be as precious stones or gold. So that is my hope.

Who are those who will say 'Lord, Lord', and hear 'Depart from me ye that work iniquity, I never knew you !' Perhaps those who he said 'call Me Lord but do not do what I say.' So there is no room for antinomianism, but there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
 

Ed Walsh

Puritan Board Senior
If all works are judged, this won't merely be good works,

But that is exactly my point. I do not believe that ALL works are judged. Doesn't my quote from Matthew 25 teach that only the good works of believers are to be judged? I just don't agree with your premise.

If there are degrees of reward and punishment given out, then it appears that many with religious titles will be shown not to be doing service matching those titles on the Last Day.

True indeed that there are "many with religious titles will be shown not to be doing service matching those titles on the Last Day." With this, I agree.
Matthew 7:22-23 (the whole chapter agrees with you)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But the warning above is to false believers, not the true.

Again I disagree with your premise that, "there are degrees of reward and punishment given out" to all. Is that what you believe? Do you think that any real child of God will receive any, even the slightest, degree of punishment? I think better things of you than that. For that would be Romanism and a covenant of works mentality. Tell me I misunderstood your point. Even the slightest rebuke from the Lord Jesus would crush you beyond recovery. Again I point you to Matthew 25. Think about your sins. Do you think Christ is going to recount all of them? How long do you think judgment Day will last? As for me, it would take my whole lifetime to review every one. If you think the blood of Christ covers something, I don't know what, but not sin, what pray tell does it cover? For I am nothing BUT sin.

Are Christians also to be accountable for every idle word we speak as well?

I am glad you brought that up. Idle words are thoughtless words. They are a much better expression of one's character than thoughtful, rehearsed words. Idle words are the real you. It is your idle words that express whether you are in Christ or not.

I am not sure why knowing your view would transform the world any more than a view that says that we are all accountable for all actions, good and ill on the last day.

I was thinking of Luther when I wrote that. He turned the world upside down. Paul and company “turned the world upside down…” too (Acts 17:6)

Anyway, I will bow out of this interaction after this for I am not a competent debater. But if I am wrong, and there is still "some" condemnation of those who believe in Jesus, I am sure that I will find out sooner or later.

But I have to tell you, that I have a concern for anyone who calls them self a Christian and still thinks that they will enter into judgment at any level.

=========

13."If you are a preacher of Grace, then preach a true, not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here we have to sin. This life in not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. . . . Pray boldly-you too are a mighty sinner." (Weimar ed. vol. 2, p. 371; Letters I, "Luther's Works," American Ed., Vol 48. p. 281- 282)

From: Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521
 

jwithnell

Moderator
Staff member
I've been thinking about this thread. Don't we stand a greater risk these days of believing that judgment day is an easy thing; everything is cool between me and God? The OP is in a strong presbytery, and though First Church had a rough time after making the transition from a longtime pastor, I'd be surprised if anything but grace would come from that pulpit.

Perhaps his pastor's statements should be seen in the light of the fact that believers will very much face judgment before a God so holy that Isaiah's first response was: woe is me! While we have every hope founded in the perfect righteousness of Jesus and the pardon for our sin, the purifying may not be pleasant. We really will have our dross burned away; some saints really will be more greatly rewarded than others. I can't help but think that the awfulness of our sin will never be more apparent. Surely grace will shine all the more greatly because of this. Our hope will rise all the higher as we flee our feeble "good" works and cling to Christ's perfection. But I suspect there will always be a bitter-sweetness to the eternal wounds on Christ's hands.
 

Ed Walsh

Puritan Board Senior
Exceeding and Eternal Weight of Glory

I thought I was not going to write back, but I just had to try again one more time. Won't someone smarter than I please help.

Don't we stand a greater risk these days of believing that judgment day is an easy thing; everything is cool between me and God?

Why would it be a hard thing? Is there some epidemic spreading that is diminishing the work of Christ? We have such clear scriptures such as:

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 ESV
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 5:24 NKJV
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

I think that everyone that has these fears and trepidations about the Great Day of the Lord should get the highly recommended book, The Whole Christ: Legalism, Antinomianism, and Gospel Assurance—Why the Marrow Controversy Still Matters

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 (KJV)
7 …when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The same event has different results. Judgment will not be hard for the child of God. We receive a weight of glory, not trepidation. We will be like Christ. Of his flesh and bone of His bone. No fooling!

1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We will be remade to withstand the “exceeding and eternal weight of glory” we shall receive. 2 Corinthians 4:17
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
If all works are judged, this won't merely be good works,

But that is exactly my point. I do not believe that ALL works are judged. Doesn't my quote from Matthew 25 teach that only the good works of believers are to be judged? I just don't agree with your premise.

If there are degrees of reward and punishment given out, then it appears that many with religious titles will be shown not to be doing service matching those titles on the Last Day.

True indeed that there are "many with religious titles will be shown not to be doing service matching those titles on the Last Day." With this, I agree.
Matthew 7:22-23 (the whole chapter agrees with you)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But the warning above is to false believers, not the true.

Again I disagree with your premise that, "there are degrees of reward and punishment given out" to all. Is that what you believe? Do you think that any real child of God will receive any, even the slightest, degree of punishment? I think better things of you than that. For that would be Romanism and a covenant of works mentality. Tell me I misunderstood your point. Even the slightest rebuke from the Lord Jesus would crush you beyond recovery. Again I point you to Matthew 25. Think about your sins. Do you think Christ is going to recount all of them? How long do you think judgment Day will last? As for me, it would take my whole lifetime to review every one. If you think the blood of Christ covers something, I don't know what, but not sin, what pray tell does it cover? For I am nothing BUT sin.

Are Christians also to be accountable for every idle word we speak as well?

I am glad you brought that up. Idle words are thoughtless words. They are a much better expression of one's character than thoughtful, rehearsed words. Idle words are the real you. It is your idle words that express whether you are in Christ or not.

I am not sure why knowing your view would transform the world any more than a view that says that we are all accountable for all actions, good and ill on the last day.

I was thinking of Luther when I wrote that. He turned the world upside down. Paul and company “turned the world upside down…” too (Acts 17:6)

Anyway, I will bow out of this interaction after this for I am not a competent debater. But if I am wrong, and there is still "some" condemnation of those who believe in Jesus, I am sure that I will find out sooner or later.

But I have to tell you, that I have a concern for anyone who calls them self a Christian and still thinks that they will enter into judgment at any level.

=========

13."If you are a preacher of Grace, then preach a true, not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here we have to sin. This life in not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. . . . Pray boldly-you too are a mighty sinner." (Weimar ed. vol. 2, p. 371; Letters I, "Luther's Works," American Ed., Vol 48. p. 281- 282)

From: Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521

Ed,

You state:

Again I disagree with your premise that, "there are degrees of reward and punishment given out" to all. Is that what you believe?

Yes. Many Christians believe this.

Luke's gospel tells of those who will be beaten with many stripes versus few stripes and Jesus says of Jerusalem that her fate will be worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. Sinning against greater light seems to lead to greater guilt.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds.
 

tleaf

Puritan Board Freshman
Like Ed, I read these posts but do not say much. And as a laymen, I may not be so theologically grounded.

Given that, I cannot help but think that too much emphasis is given to those things that we will experience in the next life, things over which we have no control, rather than dealing with the unsaved, and being Christ's representatives in this life.

Why worry about the theoretical, when the practical demands so much? Be concerned with this life first.
 

Alex the Less

Puritan Board Freshman
Works will be revealed, not sins 1Cor. 3.13

In my opinion, at the "Day" (of Christian judgment-Bema Seat)only the final works will be seen if they were done while on earth by the Spirit's ability. The relevant section is 1Cor. 3.12-15.

The Lk. 12 section (35-48) says the same thing. Its really quite clear (the rewards of Christian service). There seems to be "a loss" or even painful "punishment" (so BDAG 428 zamioo in 1Cor. 3.15). How exactly this squares with a believer not assigned to punishment, I am not sure. It could be that while Christians are not ultimately eternally punished, they will have their missteps "burned" away and only their rewards enduring.

To the question of the opening post however, The Lord is the Judge and not others and so the Christian undergoing the Bema examination and purging of missteps will only see their own wretchedness while the things done in the Spirit being manifested forever. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Lord in judgment, I believe. God is love and exhibits love towards us but it is a holy love.
 

jwithnell

Moderator
Staff member
Judgment is addressed throughout the scriptures and cannot be viewed as superflous doctrine. A proper understanding of judgment will affect how the gospel is pursued in both the church and family. Several I respect much had already commented and I initially said nothing out of deference but was concerned that the principles underlying the OP had not been addressed.

Louis Berkhof asserts that the Christian is spared judgment in the sense of condemnation. "It is sometimes objected that the sins of believers, which are pardoned, certainly will not be published at that time; but Scripture leads us to expect that they will be ... revealed as pardoned sins. Men will be judged for 'every idle word,' Matt.12:36 and for every secret thing, Rom. 2:16 ... there is no indication whatsoever that this will be limited to the wicked. Moreover, it is perfectly evident from such passages as Matt. 13:30, 40-43, 49 [and others] that the righteous will appear before the judgment seat of Christ." Page 732 1996 Eerdman edition of Systematic Theology.

I believe this is an important doctrine to emphasize for two reasons. First, with a sure judgment, it encourages a believer to examine himself as to his being in Christ -- not as a morose introspection, but based upon the objective view of scripture and perhaps the wise council of mature believers. Secondly, it encourages believers to keep short accounts with his God. I am grateful that my church keeps this before me as it points me to the grace of Christ week after week.
 

earl40

Puritan Board Professor
Judgment is addressed throughout the scriptures and cannot be viewed as superflous doctrine. A proper understanding of judgment will affect how the gospel is pursued in both the church and family. Several I respect much had already commented and I initially said nothing out of deference but was concerned that the principles underlying the OP had not been addressed.Louis Berkhof asserts that the Christian is spared judgment in the sense of condemnation. "It is sometimes objected that the sins of believers, which are pardoned, certainly will not be published at that time; but Scripture leads us to expect that they will be ... revealed as pardoned sins. Men will be judged for 'every idle word,' Matt.12:36 and for every secret thing, Rom. 2:16 ... there is no indication whatsoever that this will be limited to the wicked. Moreover, it is perfectly evident from such passages as Matt. 13:30, 40-43, 49 [and others] that the righteous will appear before the judgment seat of Christ." Page 732 1996 Eerdman edition of Systematic Theology.

I believe this is an important doctrine to emphasize for two reasons. First, with a sure judgment, it encourages a believer to examine himself as to his being in Christ -- not as a morose introspection, but based upon the objective view of scripture and perhaps the wise council of mature believers. Secondly, it encourages believers to keep short accounts with his God. I am grateful that my church keeps this before me as it points me to the grace of Christ week after week.

I also am curious how if our works are to be judged how the insufficiency of our motivation or the lack perfect faith cannot be judged to be a sinful thing?
 
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