Question for Partial Preterist

[Roldan]

I'm really trying to hold on to Partial preterism, but I have many questions thathave risen from digging into the Scripts.

1. If Nero was the "man of sin" and Thessolonians says that he will be destroyed by the splendor of Christ return and that was in 70 A.D right?

2. How can Nero be destroyed if he was already dead by 68 A.D.?

3. Also Jerusalem was destroyed not Rome

Help me out here.

Manata?

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by Roldan
I'm really trying to hold on to Partial preterism, but I have many questions thathave risen from digging into the Scripts.

1. If Nero was the "man of sin" and Thessolonians says that he will be destroyed by the splendor of Christ return and that was in 70 A.D right?

2. How can Nero be destroyed if he was already dead by 68 A.D.?

3. Also Jerusalem was destroyed not Rome

Help me out here.

Manata?

Gentry writes:

The Lord Will Consume

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders. (2 Thess. 2:8-9)[32]

As just indicated, the lawless one was eventually openly revealed. The mystery form of his character gave way to a revelation of his lawlessness in Nero's wicked acts. This occurred after the restrainer [Claudius, who maintained religio licita] was "taken out of the way," allowing Nero the public stage upon which he could act out his horrendous lawlessness.

According to Hendriksen verse eight destroys any preterist interpretation identifying the Man of Lawlessness with the Roman emperor, because it ties the events to the era of the Second Advent.[33] The strong preteristic indications in the passage heretofore, however, demand a different understanding of the destructive coming of Christ here mentioned. As already shown in the discussion of verse 1, Matthew 24:30 is most relevant here: "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." And that verse is specifically applied to the first century (Matt. 24:34), as is Revelation 1:7[34] (cp. Rev. 1:1, 3); Matthew 26:63-65; and Mark 9:1. Christ comes in judgment upon Jerusalem in the events of A.D. 67-70.

In that judgment-coming against Jerusalem there is also judgment for the Man of Lawlessness, Nero. There is hope and comfort in the promised relief from the opposition of the Jews and Nero (2 Thess. 2:15-17). Not only was Jerusalem destroyed within twenty years, but Nero himself died a violent death in the midst of the Jewish War (June 8, A.D. 68). His death, then, would occur in the Day of the Lord in conjunction with the judgment-coming of Christ. He will be destroyed by the breath of Christ, much like Assyria was destroyed with the coming and breath of the LORD in the Old Testament (Isa. 30:27-31) and like Israel was crushed by Babylon (Mic. 1:3-5). In fact, by God's providence Nero's death stopped the Jewish War briefly so that Christians trapped in Jerusalem could escape (cp. 1 Thess. 1:10).[35] The Man of Lawlessness/Beast, Nero Caesar, dies in the Day of the Lord with the Great Harlot, Jerusalem (Rev. 19:17-21; cf. Rev. 22:6, 10, 12).

The Man of Lawlessness by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.

Where does it say that Rome is destroyed?

 

[RamistThomist]

Most people for theological reasons date the fall of Jerusalem from 68-72 AD, if that helps any.

 

[andreas]

***I'm really trying to hold on to Partial preterism, but I have many questions thathave risen from digging into the Scripts.***


"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," 2 Thess. 2:1,and,

"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:15-17

There is nothing here about 70 AD,Romans,Jews,Rocks,and Olive trees.The Lord will come at the end,at the rapture.That is what scripture tells us,not man's interpretations and speculations.

andreas.

 

[Roldan]

Originally posted by andreas

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," 2 Thess. 2:1,and,

"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:15-17

There is nothing here about 70 AD,Romans,Jews,Rocks,and Olive trees.The Lord will come at the end,at the rapture.That is what scripture tells us,not man's interpretations and speculations.

andreas.

I'm glad you brought that up for that was my next question.

As for the Gentry quote, Its not convincing, because the passage says that the man of sin will be destroyed at the His coming which harmonizes with Revelation that the beast will be destroyed AT HIS coming not, Christ did not come in judgment til 70 A.D. Nero was dead at 68 A.D. To say that Nero was destroyed by the PROCESSS of His coming is not His coming its the signs of His coming but not the "splendor" of His coming.

Sounds gnosticish to me. Not impressed so far with that interpretation.

 

[turmeric]

Partial preterists still believe in the coming Parousia don't they? This stuff will happen then, I'm pretty sure. So I still believe in the Rapture, it's just the timing that the Dispensationalists have WAY off.

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by turmeric
Partial preterists still believe in the coming Parousia don't they? This stuff will happen then, I'm pretty sure. So I still believe in the Rapture, it's just the timing that the Dispensationalists have WAY off.

Yes, preterists hold to "the rapture", or 'general resurrection', and the bodily parousia of our Lord. To collapse all texts into an ad70 framework is the error of heretical-eschatology.

Bahnsen, I believe, holds 2 Thess. to be future and referring to the final apostasy, which occurs at the end of the millennium. That's based on a conversation I had with my pastor who was friend's with Bahnsen, so I may be confusing his words with Bahnsen's.

openairboy

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by openairboy

Bahnsen, I believe, holds 2 Thess. to be future and referring to the final apostasy, which occurs at the end of the millennium. That's based on a conversation I had with my pastor who was friend's with Bahnsen, so I may be confusing his words with Bahnsen's.

openairboy

Not so sure.

So, perhaps it would have been better to speak of the "œman of lawlessness" (since appeal is made to 2 Thessalonians 2) who would appear at the end of history. Yet that too would be unsatisfactory. That man´s lawlessness was already operating in Paul´s day (verse 7). The man of lawlessness would sit in the temple of God (verse 4), indicating that he was operative before the Temple´s destruction in A.D. 70, (since the man of lawlessness sets himself against anything that is even called God "“ verse 4a "“ his sitting in the temple is not a metaphorical description of a "œreligious leader´). 2 Thessalonians 2 parallels Christ´s discussion of the "œabomination of desolation" in Matthew 24, which in turn is explained by the parallel passage in Luke as being the military overthrow of Jerusalem (Luk3 21; 20) by the Romans. Thus the "œman of lawlessness" is a past historical figure, unveiled in order to bring God´s historical judgment upon Israel´s falling away (2 Thess. 2:3; cf. 1 Thess. 2:14-16).

"œYear of Antichrist"? Anno Domini! By Greg L. Bahnsen

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by openairboy

Originally posted by turmeric
Partial preterists still believe in the coming Parousia don't they? This stuff will happen then, I'm pretty sure. So I still believe in the Rapture, it's just the timing that the Dispensationalists have WAY off.

Yes, preterists hold to "the rapture", or 'general resurrection', and the bodily parousia of our Lord. To collapse all texts into an ad70 framework is the error of heretical-eschatology.

Bahnsen, I believe, holds 2 Thess. to be future and referring to the final apostasy, which occurs at the end of the millennium. That's based on a conversation I had with my pastor who was friend's with Bahnsen, so I may be confusing his words with Bahnsen's.

openairboy

I recall from listening to one of Bahnsen's tapes on postmillennialism that he believed the man of lawlessness was from the first century, but made the argument that EVEN IF the man of lawlessness were in the future, it was not inconsistent with postmillennialism... he would then be involved in the final apostasy.

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by tcalbrecht
so I may be confusing his words with Bahnsen's.

openairboy

Thus the "œman of lawlessness" is a past historical figure, unveiled in order to bring God´s historical judgment upon Israel´s falling away (2 Thess. 2:3; cf. 1 Thess. 2:14-16).

"œYear of Antichrist"? Anno Domini! By Greg L. Bahnsen

[/quote]

Then chalk it up to me confusing my pastor's words with Bahnsen's, but see ex nihilo's words, which is much of what I remember.

openairboy

 

[RamistThomist]

Bear in mind that this is partial-preterism. Not every text has to do with 70AD. Even more, grant the olivet discouse to be referent to Jerusalem and most of the book of Revelation, and I will gladly give you all these texts.

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by andreas
***I'm really trying to hold on to Partial preterism, but I have many questions thathave risen from digging into the Scripts.***


"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," 2 Thess. 2:1,and,

"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:15-17

There is nothing here about 70 AD,Romans,Jews,Rocks,and Olive trees.The Lord will come at the end,at the rapture.That is what scripture tells us,not man's interpretations and speculations.

andreas.

One could easily make the argument that the idea of a "rapture" is man's interpretation and speculation. I say this as a recovering Dispensationalist! :bigsmile:

 

[andreas]

***One could easily make the argument that the idea of a "rapture" is man's interpretation and speculation. I say this as a recovering Dispensationalist!***

In order to avoid repeating that whole verse every time we refer to this event, we simply call this The Rapture. When we use the word Rapture, we are referring to 1st Thessalonians 4:17 . The word Rapture does not actually appear in scripture.

andreas.

 

[RamistThomist]

How about we not use Rapture but Resurrection? The reason I say is that 99.95% of the time that rapture is used, one has this timeline in mind:

1)Rapture of the saints
2)7 years of tribulation.
3)Jesus returns again.
etc.

When it would be better to say General Resurrection of just and unjust at the consummation of history.

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by andreas
***One could easily make the argument that the idea of a "rapture" is man's interpretation and speculation. I say this as a recovering Dispensationalist!***

In order to avoid repeating that whole verse every time we refer to this event, we simply call this The Rapture. When we use the word Rapture, we are referring to 1st Thessalonians 4:17 . The word Rapture does not actually appear in scripture.

andreas.

I realize this. I am not referring to the word, rather the EVENT. Dispensationalists see the Rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. That is what I was referring to.

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by kevin.carroll

Originally posted by andreas
***One could easily make the argument that the idea of a "rapture" is man's interpretation and speculation. I say this as a recovering Dispensationalist!***

In order to avoid repeating that whole verse every time we refer to this event, we simply call this The Rapture. When we use the word Rapture, we are referring to 1st Thessalonians 4:17 . The word Rapture does not actually appear in scripture.

andreas.

I realize this. I am not referring to the word, rather the EVENT. Dispensationalists see the Rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. That is what I was referring to.

I think that the issue here is that "the rapture" in common parlance refers to the secret rapture espoused by J.N. Darby et al. That is how Kevin was using the word. Let's not get caught up in semantics. Also, by the way, if one really wants to use shorthand to refer to the incident in 1 Thess 4:17, one should speak of the Second Coming. The rapture is actually just a part of that.

 

[VERITAS]

Hebraism for Jewish Hierarchy

2 Thess 2 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. {3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; {4} who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His Mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His Coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. {13} But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: {14} Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. {15} Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. {16} Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, {17} Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work."

I'm home in bed sick at the moment and don't feel up to typing all the quotes, but Gary Demar had an appendix in his book "Last Days Madness" where he postulates (if memory serves) that the man of lawlessness is a Hebraism for the Jewish hierarchy particularly as embodied in the office of high priest and that the restrainer was the Roman authority over the Jews. He also states that our gathering together unto Him is not the Rapture but episunagogue, or the gathering of the people of God into a body, as a hen gathers her chicks. And that it is the Gospel which so gathers. The apostasy that is spoken of near the end of the chapter is the Jewish apostasy from the true religion/focus of the O.C.

But I agree with the thread-starter, Gentry's hypothesis doesn't satisfy this preterist either!

--C

 

[andreas]

***I realize this. I am not referring to the word, rather the EVENT. Dispensationalists see the Rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. That is what I was referring to. ***


"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at The Last Trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor.15:52


"For the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:15-17

It is not a separate event.1 Corinthians clearly states, AT THE LAST trumpet.The last,there is no more after the last ,and we know the last trumpet will be follwed by the second coming and the rapture.
andreas.

 

[andreas]

***Thus the "œman of lawlessness" is a past historical figure, unveiled in order to bring God´s historical judgment upon Israel´s falling away (2 Thess. 2:3; cf. 1 Thess. 2:14-16).***


"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
2 Thes.2:2-3

It is written,"the man of sin".

Sin, is a transgession of God's law,1 John 3:4 "for sin is the transgression of the law".

Man,that is, any man that sins or transgresses God's law, is the man of sin.It is not a particular,or specific man,but ANY man that trasgresses the law.
andreas.

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by andreas
***I realize this. I am not referring to the word, rather the EVENT. Dispensationalists see the Rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. That is what I was referring to. ***


"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at The Last Trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor.15:52


"For the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:15-17

It is not a separate event.1 Corinthians clearly states, AT THE LAST trumpet.The last,there is no more after the last ,and we know the last trumpet will be follwed by the second coming and the rapture.
andreas.

I don't understand. You say that there will be nothing after the last trumpet then you say that the second coming and rapture will follow the trumpet. By the way, when you and Paul went back and forth on this, I don't know if you realized that neither Paul, myself, Adam, or any other partial-preterist denies the second coming of Christ. We all joyfully affirm that.

 

[andreas]

***I don't understand. You say that there will be nothing after the last trumpet then you say that the second coming and rapture will follow the trumpet. ***

No more trumpets.The second coming takes place then.The second coming,the last day.

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at The Last Day!" John 6:39


"And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the son and believeth on Him may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at The Last Day!" John 6:40


***By the way, when you and Paul went back and forth on this, I don't know if you realized that neither Paul, myself, Adam, or any other partial-preterist denies the second coming of Christ. We all joyfully affirm that.***

I was responding to Kevin.Carroll and not to preterists.

Quote:

***I realize this. I am not referring to the word, rather the EVENT. Dispensationalists see the Rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. That is what I was referring to. ***

andreas.

[Edited on 3-30-2005 by andreas]

 

[ReformedWretch]

I have yet to buy a new bookshelf and as such all my study materials (Gentry, etc) are in boxes still. I plan of posting some quotes soon!

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by andreas
***I don't understand. You say that there will be nothing after the last trumpet then you say that the second coming and rapture will follow the trumpet. ***

No more trumpets.The second coming takes place then.The second coming,the last day.

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at The Last Day!" John 6:39


"And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the son and believeth on Him may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at The Last Day!" John 6:40


***By the way, when you and Paul went back and forth on this, I don't know if you realized that neither Paul, myself, Adam, or any other partial-preterist denies the second coming of Christ. We all joyfully affirm that.***

I was responding to Kevin.Carroll and not to preterists.

Quote:

***I realize this. I am not referring to the word, rather the EVENT. Dispensationalists see the Rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. That is what I was referring to. ***

andreas.

[Edited on 3-30-2005 by andreas]

That may be, but I fail to see what point you are making. Fred had it right. When you said "Rapture," I had the popular usage of the word in mind. Since it is a word created and used by Dispensationalists to describe an event distinct from the Second Coming and since it is a term so easily misunderstood, perhaps we should refer to the event we are discussing, the Second Coming.

 

[VERITAS]

Benjamin B. Warfield on 2 Thess 2

The withholding power is already present. Although the Man of Sin is not yet revealed, as a mystery his essential "lawlessness" is already working -- "only until the present restrainer is removed from the midst." He expects him to sit in the "temple of God," which perhaps most naturally refers to the literal temple in Jerusalem, although the Apostle knew that the out-pouring of God's wrath on the Jews was close at hand (1 Thess ii.16). And if we compare the description which the Apostle gives of him with our Lord's address on the Mount of Olives (Mt xxiv), to which, as we have already hinted, Paul makes obvious allusion, it becomes at once in the highest degree probable that in the words, "he exalteth himself against all that is called God, or is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the sanctuary of God showing himself that he is God," Paul can have nothing else in view than what our Lord described as "the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (Mt xxiv. 15); and this our Lord connects immediately with the beleaguering of Jerusalem (cf. Luke xxi. 20).

--This article was originally written in 1886 and appeared in The Biblical Expositor

So, I see only 3 options:

1) the temple was still standing and an available place for the man of sin to occupy (preterist position)

2) the temple must be rebuilt in order for the man of sin to occupy it (futurist postion)

3) the temple is a spiritual reality and the man of sin would have to be a spiritual leader who leads a) professing Christians or b) the very elect astray (the anti-papal view)

I have problems with #2 because a rebuilt temple would be nothing to God, Him not having called for or sanctioned such a structure and it would be a regression to types and shadows in the face of the true. And I have problems with #3 because the sheep know the voice of God and will not follow another; the rest are goats anyway.

I prefer #1 because: a) the temple was still standing, and b) the high priest, as spiritual leader of the O.C. people of God, was standing in the temple reputedly speaking for God and leading the people astray. In other words, he was opposing God (the Son) and exalting or setting himself up as God!

Thus it was the Gospel (or "the spirit of His Mouth," v.8) which revealed and destroyed the O.C. system and it was their hanging on to the O.C. which I believe was The Lie, the strong delusion - i.e. that they could be saved and inherit the promises apart from Christ.

[Edited on 3-30-2005 by VERITAS]

 

[Robin]

There's solid evidence that Revelation was written in the 90's. That....right there...poses a problem for Gentry.

Why can't the style of Revelation's and all the NT language about "Babylon; antichrists; wars; signs" Etc., rather point to that there were will be warS (in general); many antichristS not merely one (though there may be a particular one, near the end of the age); general earthquakes and pestilence (not one particular set of signs)? Why can't the references point to the overall state of the world before Christ's return? Ahh, but that would mean that "keep watch" for the Christian is focusing upon doctrine and diligence, trusting in Christ's promises, alone. We couldn't be idle, speculating about dates or current events - even the past-current events of 70 AD. Of course, the "breath of His mouth" is about the Gospel prevailing in the midst of this present evil age - of which we are still in.

Partial-preterists must deal with the LOUDNESS and the PUBLIC-GLOBAL aspect of the 2nd Advent. They must also deal with the plain reading of the Text. Is there ONE Second Advent? Two? Which is it?

When Christ comes back, it's simple: every eye shall see Him; He will put all His enemies under His feet; He will raise the dead; judge the wicked and restore creation.

My opinion (which is worth nothing) is that those who aren't satisfied with Scripture must tirelessly grapple with writings outside of Scripture -- not resting in Christ's promises, plainly written in the Text. This distracts from hoping in Christ --- it's more like hoping that Gentry (or whoever else) is right....sounds like someone is robbing Christians of the rest Christ has earned them....at least that's what I see from here...



Robin

[Edited on 3-30-2005 by Robin]

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by VERITAS



So, I see only 3 options:

1) the temple was still standing and an available place for the man of sin to occupy (preterist position)

2) the temple must be rebuilt in order for the man of sin to occupy it (futurist postion)

3) the temple is a spiritual reality and the man of sin would have to be a spiritual leader who leads a) professing Christians or b) the very elect astray (the anti-papal view)

I have problems with #2 because a rebuilt temple would be nothing to God, Him not having called for or sanctioned such a structure and it would be a regression to types and shadows in the face of the true. And I have problems with #3 because the sheep know the voice of God and will not follow another; the rest are goats anyway.

I prefer #1 because: a) the temple was still standing, and b) the high priest, as spiritual leader of the O.C. people of God, was standing in the temple reputedly speaking for God and leading the people astray. In other words, he was opposing God (the Son) and exalting or setting himself up as God!

Thus it was the Gospel (or "the spirit of His Mouth," v.8) which revealed and destroyed the O.C. system and it was their hanging on to the O.C. which I believe was The Lie, the strong delusion - i.e. that they could be saved and inherit the promises apart from Christ.

[Edited on 3-30-2005 by VERITAS]

I agree with this.

But you cannot disagree with the fact, that a future A.C, Global Government, 7 year trib is much more exciting to us 21st century ers :bigsmile:

[Edited on 3-30-2005 by Slippery]

 

[VERITAS]

You're right of course, Keon, lies are often very sexy...

The following is from Demar's book. The emphasis is mine. He says that there are "striking parallels between the Olivet Discourse and 2 Thessalonians 2."

(Mat 24:31) "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

(2 Th 2:1) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

---------------------------

(Mat 24:27) "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

(Mat 24:30) "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

(Mark 13:26-27) "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. {27} And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

(Luke 21:27) "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

(2 Th 2:1-2) "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, {2} That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

------------------------------

(Mark 13:5) "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:"

(Mat 24:12) "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

(2 Th 2:3) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

--------------------------------

(Mat 24:15) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"

(Mark 13:14) "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"

(2 Th 2:4) "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

-----------------------------

(Mat 24:25) "Behold, I have told you before."

(2 Th 2:5) "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

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(Mat 24:12, 15) "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." ...{15} "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"


(2 Th 2:7) "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

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(Mat 24:24) "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

(Mark 13:22) "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

(2 Th 2:8-12) "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

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(Mark 13:27) "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

(Luke 21:8) "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them."

(2 Th 2:13) "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

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(Mark 13:23) "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."

(Mark 13:31) "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

(2 Th 2:15) "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

 

[kevin.carroll]

Hey, Cheri.

Do you go to Grace Baptist in Jackson?

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by andreas
***I realize this. I am not referring to the word, rather the EVENT. Dispensationalists see the Rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. That is what I was referring to. ***


"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at The Last Trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor.15:52


"For the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes. 4:15-17

It is not a separate event.1 Corinthians clearly states, AT THE LAST trumpet.The last,there is no more after the last ,and we know the last trumpet will be follwed by the second coming and the rapture.
andreas.

Andreas, forgive me but are you just trying to be obtuse? I have explained what I meant three times now and yet you seem to keep misquoting me.

Let's say I create a word...and for the sake of argument, I create the word "dog," which also for the sake of argument I use to describe a quadruped of the canine genus. NOW you come along and adopt my word, only you use it to describe a feline. If I created the word and my usage of it has gained broad acceptance and you attempt to use the same word to describe something completely different, you are wrong in your usage of the word.

The word "rapture" was created and popularized by Dispensationalists to describe a "secret" catching away of the Church (as an entity completely distinct from Israel), prior to the 7 year Tribulation. It is used to describe an event completely separate from the Parousia.

With those thoughts in mind, your usage of the word "rapture" to describe the Second Coming is incorrect. And that is the only point I was trying to make.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by VERITAS
lies are often very sexy...

the only way men can get married oops I mean people. :bigsmile: