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Forgive me if this has been asked before. At what point does a contemporary praise song become a hymn in your opinion?
Non-EP here.
All "Contemporary Praise Songs" are already hymns.
Hymns by definition are praise songs to God.
The age of a hymn / praise song doesn't make the song acceptable. Some new songs are fantastic. Some old songs are absolutely dreadful.
The content of a song makes it acceptable for worship.
Lol. Have you had the pleasure of listening to that song? I have helped out at children's summer camp the past couple years, and that song is a regular. It is surely cringeworthy.Non-EP (but dominant psalmody if possible).
I don't know much about music, but "old timey" hymns have a certain stately rhythm to them. Praise songs, by contrast, go more like this.
"Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....
I'm not Non but what is the difference? How are the two defined?
Forgive me if this has been asked before. At what point does a contemporary praise song become a hymn in your opinion?
Lol. Have you had the pleasure of listening to that song? I have helped out at children's summer camp the past couple years, and that song is a regular. It is surely cringeworthy.Non-EP (but dominant psalmody if possible).
I don't know much about music, but "old timey" hymns have a certain stately rhythm to them. Praise songs, by contrast, go more like this.
"Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....
At what point does a contemporary praise song become a hymn in your opinion?
My knee-jerk and unthoughtful response is that tunes are important: anything after 1750 is immediately suspect (that's when Bach died). I'll grant that Sine Nomine by Ralph Vaughn Williams in 1906, and a few others, are pretty good tunes, too.
As for the words, those written after 1830 or so are scrutinized heavily. 1830 was a turning point toward the bad in theology, philosophy, evangelicalism, etc.
That's the thumbnail rule. Of course, the hymns still have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
(BTW, I'm pretty much EP myself, but I'm not in a position to impose that on others).
Non-EP (but dominant psalmody if possible).
I don't know much about music, but "old timey" hymns have a certain stately rhythm to them. Praise songs, by contrast, go more like this.
"Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord. Yes, Yes Lord....
I've understood that a hymn was a scripture paraphrase and spiritual song is more original. (And yes, this definition of "hymn" would make many of the metrical psalms into hymns.) Concerning instruments, they are predominantly circumstantial, but I think it is wise to stay away from some of the instruments more associated with secular music, though there is nothing ungodly about the instrument itself. Certain instruments may also may be more appropriate in another cultural.
All things are lawful, but not all are helpful.
Take that last step. One thing that convinced me of EP is that there is no hymn, old or new, that I do not scrutinize, unlike the psalms which are beyond scrutiny.
Earl:
Your question lacks needed information about your purpose in asking it. It sounds like you may be trying to make a point about Psalm-singing by referring to Paul's use of "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." Perhaps you assume that non-EP folks defend their position by arguing that the Bible mentions three broad categories of worship music while EP folks see these as contents of the psalter. Therefore, you challenge non-EPs to explain the difference.
But there are plenty of non-EP people (like myself) who will readily acknowledge that "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" might be referring to the psalter and probably weren't seen by Paul as having a lot of difference between them. We have other reasons for believing it's right to sing songs not found in the psalter. So we have little reason to try to explain the difference between hymns and spiritual songs. It doesn't really matter for the position we take.
Now, if you're asking about general language usage in the church today, and how some worship music gets labelled a "hymn" while other music is thought of as a "spiritual song" or maybe a "praise song," that's a very different question. I'm not convinced those modern labels have much to do with Paul's labels, though, which I suspect is at the heart of your question. Correct?
Take that last step. One thing that convinced me of EP is that there is no hymn, old or new, that I do not scrutinize, unlike the psalms which are beyond scrutiny.
I know your poking at me is good-natured. But really, there is no "last step" for me.
I am confessional, LBCF, and am bound by what our church follows. In that regard, I sing the hymns, songs, and spiritual songs with as much faith as God gives me.
We do sing more psalms than anything else, and our congregation seems edified by all that.
Just a question Sean on this issue. Does Non EP refer to music style that would not be Hymns, but could include the songs in hymnals and contemporary worship songs also?
Thank you Victor! So it means that songs from just the Psalms areeep, and non ep could be either other portions of Bible, or not from it at all?
"Areep" = "are EP". It took me a minute to figure it out.
Earl:
Your question lacks needed information about your purpose in asking it. It sounds like you may be trying to make a point about Psalm-singing by referring to Paul's use of "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." Perhaps you assume that non-EP folks defend their position by arguing that the Bible mentions three broad categories of worship music while EP folks see these as contents of the psalter. Therefore, you challenge non-EPs to explain the difference.
But there are plenty of non-EP people (like myself) who will readily acknowledge that "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" might be referring to the psalter and probably weren't seen by Paul as having a lot of difference between them. We have other reasons for believing it's right to sing songs not found in the psalter. So we have little reason to try to explain the difference between hymns and spiritual songs. It doesn't really matter for the position we take.
Now, if you're asking about general language usage in the church today, and how some worship music gets labelled a "hymn" while other music is thought of as a "spiritual song" or maybe a "praise song," that's a very different question. I'm not convinced those modern labels have much to do with Paul's labels, though, which I suspect is at the heart of your question. Correct?
I was simply asking the mindset of what people who are not EP on what is the difference between an old traditional hymn and a contemporary praise song written today. As Chris said in post #2 there is no difference, to which I agree with. What one prefers be the difference be it time, content, or what ever, man made preference seems to the the standard based on what man scrutinizes to be right and correct in God's eyes.
Earl:
Your question lacks needed information about your purpose in asking it. It sounds like you may be trying to make a point about Psalm-singing by referring to Paul's use of "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." Perhaps you assume that non-EP folks defend their position by arguing that the Bible mentions three broad categories of worship music while EP folks see these as contents of the psalter. Therefore, you challenge non-EPs to explain the difference.
But there are plenty of non-EP people (like myself) who will readily acknowledge that "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" might be referring to the psalter and probably weren't seen by Paul as having a lot of difference between them. We have other reasons for believing it's right to sing songs not found in the psalter. So we have little reason to try to explain the difference between hymns and spiritual songs. It doesn't really matter for the position we take.
Now, if you're asking about general language usage in the church today, and how some worship music gets labelled a "hymn" while other music is thought of as a "spiritual song" or maybe a "praise song," that's a very different question. I'm not convinced those modern labels have much to do with Paul's labels, though, which I suspect is at the heart of your question. Correct?
I was simply asking the mindset of what people who are not EP on what is the difference between an old traditional hymn and a contemporary praise song written today. As Chris said in post #2 there is no difference, to which I agree with. What one prefers be the difference be it time, content, or what ever, man made preference seems to the the standard based on what man scrutinizes to be right and correct in God's eyes.
I'd say applying the "hymn" or "praise song" label is a judgment call depending mostly on a number of style factors and maybe also on theological richness. If it would work as a decent poem if it weren't set to music, then chances are folks will label it a "hymn." But there's no hard and fast rule for how to apply those labels, nor does there need to be.
Tim,
Out of curiosity, where did you get those definitions for hymns and spiritual songs?
Farther, under these three terms he includes all kinds of songs. They are commonly distinguished in this way -- that a psalm is that, in the singing of which some musical instrument besides the tongue is made use of: a hymn is properly a song of praise, whether it be sung simply with the voice or otherwise; while an ode contains not merely praises, but exhortations and other matters.
The assembly’s Annotations embrace Leigh’s understanding of the verse in question and explain that psalms are the psalms of David, hymns are certain “ditties”composed on special occasions, and spiritual songs were not composed before hand but were “prick’t before them with musical notes, but such as men endited by an extraordinary gift.”79 In other words, spiritual songs were composed extemporaneously.
79 Annotations, comm. Eph. 5: 19.
"areeep"??? I have no idea what that means.Thank you Victor! So it means that songs from just the Psalms areeep, and non ep could be either other portions of Bible, or not from it at all?