Question on Being Commanded to Obey

[C. Matthew McMahon]

All -

Under the guise of liberty of conscience, there are a host of "things" that pastors and elders often "think" may fall under thier respective duty, but may take things too far.

Let me use a "wild" example, that is simply silly, but proves the point.

Pastor Bob wants everyone to wear white robes to church, because the Church of Revleation says that Jesus will one day robe us in white. Pastor Bob says that we should prepare for that by wearing white robes, and that people in the church would be looked down upon if they didn't do that.

Are any of you aware of any documents or books or other resources that would have something like a "Christians Bill of Rights" besides the BCO of a respective denomination?

Certainly we have lots of articles on church members responsibilities to obey leadership etc. But what about the rights we have as Christians not to be disciplined over matters of conscience?

Certainly the WCF is helpful. Any other ideas?

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

There are principles of Christian liberty with respect to ecclesiastical authority which may be worth considering in J.G. Vos' article on the subject:

Links and Downloads Manager - Christian Walk Links - The Bible Doctrine of the Separated Life by J.G. Vos - The PuritanBoard

 

[MW]

Let me use a "wild" example, that is simply silly, but proves the point.

Pastor Bob wants everyone to wear white robes to church, because the Church of Revleation says that Jesus will one day robe us in white. Pastor Bob says that we should prepare for that by wearing white robes, and that people in the church would be looked down upon if they didn't do that.

I'd agree that it's a "wild" example except I've heard some defences of modern worship practices on the very same reasoning.

 

[MW]

Are any of you aware of any documents or books or other resources that would have something like a "Christians Bill of Rights" besides the BCO of a respective denomination?

Most "cases" are usually decided by negation. What do the church standards say it is our duty to do, e.g., in the Larger Catechism's exposition of the ten commandments? and from there we may deduce areas of freedom.

 

[Pergamum]

I had a aquaintance that went to a Reformed Baptist elder "ruled" congregation on the east coast. He reported the following:

To ensure that the congregation was not sinning, the elders wanted all the members under their care (the flock was divided up in groups of 7 or 8 per elder) to show the elders their pay stubs so that they could ensure that the members were not sinning by neglecting their tithes and offerings.

He said that he did because he wanted to obey those in rule over him.

And again, one of the elders took to counselling him about small matters of how his children dressed and how they were disciplined when they got into trouble. It seemed quite intrusive. Finally, the elder told the man's wife to do something, which she did not want to. The husband was softly urged in private later to teach her how better to obey.


He looked at me strange when I told him that I would have told the elder to take a hike.


Who is right?

 

[SueS]

Good grief, that sounds almost like the church I just came out of. All the "pastor" preached was "obey, obey, obey"....him. He even said that we weren't to criticize the leadership even when it was in the wrong. It got so that I hated to even hear the word "obedience". I was so messed up in my understanding of biblical obedience that it has taken months to begin understanding it in its proper context and that is a work in progress.

Books about abusive churches might be of help in understanding this sort of problem.

 

[MrMerlin777]

I had a aquaintance that went to a Reformed Baptist elder "ruled" congregation on the east coast. He reported the following:

To ensure that the congregation was not sinning, the elders wanted all the members under their care (the flock was divided up in groups of 7 or 8 per elder) to show the elders their pay stubs so that they could ensure that the members were not sinning by neglecting their tithes and offerings.

He said that he did because he wanted to obey those in rule over him.

And again, one of the elders took to counselling him about small matters of how his children dressed and how they were disciplined when they got into trouble. It seemed quite intrusive. Finally, the elder told the man's wife to do something, which she did not want to. The husband was softly urged in private later to teach her how better to obey.


He looked at me strange when I told him that I would have told the elder to take a hike.


Who is right?

Depends on the situations certainly, however what you discribe certainly seems extreem, and possibly even cultic. I'd have told the elder to take a long walk off of a short pier, and most likely left the congregation.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Are any of you aware of any documents or books or other resources that would have something like a "Christians Bill of Rights" besides the BCO of a respective denomination?

Most "cases" are usually decided by negation. What do the church standards say it is our duty to do, e.g., in the Larger Catechism's exposition of the ten commandments? and from there we may deduce areas of freedom.

I agree.

A Christian "Bill of Rights" sounds like something a fundamentalist American would come up with. I understand what Matthew (the Admin) is driving at but it seems that the principle we're after is the RPW and the Biblical notion of Christian Liberty doesn't compute for a lot of folks who draft up these "Bill of Rights" things.

Usually, people are thinking of their liberty in their freedom to do whatever they want to do but the Word of God circumscribes both what Churches and men are ordained to be obedient unto. On the one hand, the Church has a duty to teach men and women what the nature of their liberty is. On the other hand, in the spelling out of that duty, it proscribes the Church from binding the consciences of men to any other rule.

My immediate reaction to white robes would be to paraprahse Jeremiah 19:5: "...which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind...."

That seems to be the most fundamental "right" of a Christian not to be held captive in his conscience to anything that God Himself has not commanded.

 

[Gloria]

All -

Under the guise of liberty of conscience, there are a host of "things" that pastors and elders often "think" may fall under thier respective duty, but may take things too far.

Let me use a "wild" example, that is simply silly, but proves the point.

Pastor Bob wants everyone to wear white robes to church, because the Church of Revleation says that Jesus will one day robe us in white. Pastor Bob says that we should prepare for that by wearing white robes, and that people in the church would be looked down upon if they didn't do that.

Are any of you aware of any documents or books or other resources that would have something like a "Christians Bill of Rights" besides the BCO of a respective denomination?

Certainly we have lots of articles on church members responsibilities to obey leadership etc. But what about the rights we have as Christians not to be disciplined over matters of conscience?

Certainly the WCF is helpful. Any other ideas?

I was actually IN this situation, except it was white SHEETS, instead of robes for the very purpose you've said. We were made to feel less spritual (not a part of the "remnant") and rebellious for not wearing our sheets during service.

I agree that the WCF is helpful in this regard. Why not just consider the verses provided as proofs for that point in the confession?

 

[VictorBravo]

I had a aquaintance that went to a Reformed Baptist elder "ruled" congregation on the east coast. He reported the following:

To ensure that the congregation was not sinning, the elders wanted all the members under their care (the flock was divided up in groups of 7 or 8 per elder) to show the elders their pay stubs so that they could ensure that the members were not sinning by neglecting their tithes and offerings.

He said that he did because he wanted to obey those in rule over him.

And again, one of the elders took to counselling him about small matters of how his children dressed and how they were disciplined when they got into trouble. It seemed quite intrusive. Finally, the elder told the man's wife to do something, which she did not want to. The husband was softly urged in private later to teach her how better to obey.


He looked at me strange when I told him that I would have told the elder to take a hike.


Who is right?

I would have (and once did) told the elder that his jurisdiction ended where mine began, and he had no business ordering my wife. The fact that he didn't understand that meant I'd be wary of following his other advice too.

Urg.

 

[Sonoftheday]

Back when I attended my old church, the pastor was a teetotaller and preached against any consumption no matter how moderate from the pulpit on at least one occassion. I often wondered if I was being dissobedient to his eldership by partaking of such liberties. My new pastor also practices and advises total abstinence, but I have not heard him condemn it as my last pastor did, nor have heard him make a horrible attempt missusing the bible to condemn it.

 

[moral necessity]

I know of a man who was involved in a church that explicitly taught that church authority can override and intrude into family authority. He had a hard time maintaining a job, as he tended to be personally undisciplined. As the elders learned of his situation and confronted him, and he in turn asked for their counsel and help, they later became impatient with his inability to perform at the level of the average man. Meanwhile, his wife was being counseled and advised on the side about her husband sinning, for he was not providing for her. The counsel drove a wedge between her and her husband, and she soon separated, under their counsel, as he was not "consenting to be a husband", according to their take on I Cor. 7; and she waited for him to repent before she would return. The marriage dissolved and 3 children were left without a father. The principle guiding the elders was that church famly is prioritized above personal family, and that the elders are permitted to tread into those circles of authority of a husband and weild their own authority and counsel within the family, without regard for the husband's position. He later became so embittered over the divorce that ensued and the absence of his children, that he abandoned the faith for many years. I think he has since untangled some of the knots.

I know of another man who left that same church, due to their legalistic teachings. His wife asked if she could remain for a short period of time, so as to follow through with her commitments she still had there. As the church views leaving their body as near sinful, and as they viewed the husband as rebellious towards their doctrine and authority, they began to counsel his wife secretly, apart from the husband's knowledge, regarding his actions, and of how he is leading her and their children down the wrong path by viewing their teachings as heretical and by leaving the church. A wedge began to be placed between the couple, as the wife began to partly believe their words. She has since left the church, after she saw how they avoided speaking to her husband in public, and even began publically ignoring her whenever she was with him, after they knew that she began attending the new church with her husband more frequently.

I often wondered if that church wasn't a little cultish, for they shunned nearly all other churches, keeping exclusively to themselves, and seemed to have this obsession with authority.?

 

[Herald]

We all have examples of extremes, but getting back to the OP, Matt asked:

Are any of you aware of any documents or books or other resources that would have something like a "Christians Bill of Rights" besides the BCO of a respective denomination?

Certainly we have lots of articles on church members responsibilities to obey leadership etc. But what about the rights we have as Christians not to be disciplined over matters of conscience?

Certainly the WCF is helpful. Any other ideas?

I am not aware of any other documents, books or resources. The question I would ask is, what authority does an elder or pastor have that is beyond their confession or the clear teaching of scripture? How much authority does and elder or pastor possess? When is the line crossed? I don't think the church needs another document. We have the bible and, subordinate to the scriptures, we have the confessions. Denominations may have additional distinctives. Do we need more rules than these?

 

[Rev. Todd Ruddell]

Perhaps Gillespie's Wholesome Severity Reconciled with Christian Liberty would provide some use for you on this topic?

 

[Pergamum]

An example of how this plays out in some Fundy churches:

A man believes and is batpized into a local church. Then they are given a church covenant which they sign without looking much because he is thankful to be saved. Then, later he discovers that the church covenant has a clause about not partaking of any alcoholic practices. Now, he has already signed and his consciences is bound and the church preaches submission to the church covenant.

 

[Kevin]

All -

Under the guise of liberty of conscience, there are a host of "things" that pastors and elders often "think" may fall under thier respective duty, but may take things too far.

Let me use a "wild" example, that is simply silly, but proves the point.

Pastor Bob wants everyone to wear white robes to church, because the Church of Revleation says that Jesus will one day robe us in white. Pastor Bob says that we should prepare for that by wearing white robes, and that people in the church would be looked down upon if they didn't do that.

Are any of you aware of any documents or books or other resources that would have something like a "Christians Bill of Rights" besides the BCO of a respective denomination?

Certainly we have lots of articles on church members responsibilities to obey leadership etc. But what about the rights we have as Christians not to be disciplined over matters of conscience?

Certainly the WCF is helpful. Any other ideas?

I was actually IN this situation, except it was white SHEETS, instead of robes for the very purpose you've said. We were made to feel less spritual (not a part of the "remnant") and rebellious for not wearing our sheets during service.

I agree that the WCF is helpful in this regard. Why not just consider the verses provided as proofs for that point in the confession?

Sister, were you in a "klan" church?

 

[Herald]

An example of how this plays out in some Fundy churches:

A man believes and is batpized into a local church. Then they are given a church covenant which they sign without looking much because he is thankful to be saved. Then, later he discovers that the church covenant has a clause about not partaking of any alcoholic practices. Now, he has already signed and his consciences is bound and the church preaches submission to the church covenant.

In that situation I believe his conscience is bound. If he cannot obey the church covenant with a right heart attitude than he should leave that church. It happens all the time when someone changes their view of baptism, right?