Question on the satisfaction of God's justice and the atonement

[blakerussell]

It would appear I stop in these boards when I get stuck with a question. For that, I suppose I should apologize, as my contributions here are mostly me being stumped with something. At any rate, on with my question.

I've been studying the sufficiency of Christ's atonement a lot lately, and a question came to mind regarding the duration of Christ's sufferings. We (Christ's people) deserve eternal damnation. We deserve eternal sufferings because our offenses are against an infinitely Holy God. This I comprehend fairly well. I suppose I am then stuck on how Christ's sufferings on our behalf satisfied God's justice when Christ's sufferings were finite in duration.

I know it must have something to do with Christ's infinite worth/value, and His being the infinite God-man. Where or how I apply this to the question is where I am stuck.

I also want to gravitate towards several passages in Hebrews (hebrews 9 mostly) regarding this question, but even when I do, I still can't come up with an answer that seems to satisfy me.

 

[blakerussell]

Also, here is a link to a blog post/conversation that took place on this very topic. The fellow who wrote it is a Calvinist himself and seemingly into reformed theology. “One White Lie Will Send You to Hell For All Eternity” . . . and other stupid statments | Parchment and Pen

Interesting read. Didn't help me any, haha.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

The reason hell is forever is because God is infinite, and the offense against him is infinite because he is who he is. Our offenses are against the infinite majesty of God, and deserve a commensurate repayment.

The penalty that Christ endured was not "limited" by three days in the tomb, or 6 hours on the cross, except in a restricted and temporal sense. The time spent suffering could have been lengthened or shortened according to the wisdom of God. It only had to show forth sufficiently to man the seriousness with which God takes sin. It only had to correlate with the prophetic frame (cf.1Cor.15:4, "raised the third day according to the Scriptures). It had to be long enough and short enough to signify what needed to be.

Christ suffered infinitely on the cross. He drained the cup of the wrath of God to its dregs (Mk.10:38; Mt.26:39; Jn.18:11, etc. cf. Is.51:22; Jer.25:15; Ps.75:8, etc.). He said, "It is finished." His divinity sustained his humanity, enabling such insubstantial a thing as flesh to bear the "awful load," until the infinite Son had received the infinite portion from the Father. No one else but the theanthropos could have fulfilled such a role. This is why he is the Perfect and Final sacrifice.

 

[blakerussell]

The reason hell is forever is because God is infinite, and the offense against him is infinite because he is who he is. Our offenses are against the infinite majesty of God, and deserve a commensurate repayment.

The penalty that Christ endured was not "limited" by three days in the tomb, or 6 hours on the cross, except in a restricted and temporal sense. The time spent suffering could have been lengthened or shortened according to the wisdom of God. It only had to show forth sufficiently to man the seriousness with which God takes sin. It only had to correlate with the prophetic frame (cf.1Cor.15:4, "raised the third day according to the Scriptures). It had to be long enough and short enough to signify what needed to be.

Christ suffered infinitely on the cross. He drained the cup of the wrath of God to its dregs (Mk.10:38; Mt.26:39; Jn.18:11, etc. cf. Is.51:22; Jer.25:15; Ps.75:8, etc.). He said, "It is finished." His divinity sustained his humanity, enabling such insubstantial a thing as flesh to bear the "awful load," until the infinite Son had received the infinite portion from the Father. No one else but the theanthropos could have fulfilled such a role. This is why he is the Perfect and Final sacrifice.

So I suppose a condensed version might look like this-

Man's sin deserves an infinite punishment/payment. Because man is finite and lives under time, the only way man can satisfy God's justice (apart from Christ) is to undergo eternal punishment.

Christ is the infinite God. He is not restricted to time. When Christ took on flesh, Christ's flesh he took on was able to take on the infinite punishment of his people in a finite amount of time because Christ's infinite deity sustained his finite flesh.

I suppose it must be asserted that it would simply not be possible for finite man to bear the load of God's infinite justice due to him, in a finite amount of time. It's hard to postulate what would happen if this were attempted. Perhaps man would be annihilated, or become unconscious of his sufferings. In this sense then, justice would not be served- God's justice not satisfied, hence the need for eternal punishment.

Any of you may feel free to jump in and correct my thinking at any time. I hope my desire for understanding is a healthy one.

 

[rbcbob]

Man who is born in sin can never be made pure and holy by any human means. Being constitutionally and experientially sinful he can never dwell in that holy habitation of God who is holy. When unsanctified man dies he is cast into hell forever. His condition there cannot and will not change -ever. There is no remedy for him. There will not, and indeed cannot be any remedy for his condition. He must remain eternally damned, separated from the thrice holy God. Inasmuch as his condition and status continues forever he must then remain forever in pain and torment. If it were possible for his torments to expunge even the tiniest particle of one of his least sins then one might imagine that in some finite number of millennia he might eventually be purged of every particle of his sin. But even an eternity of torments atones not for the least of his sin. Thus he remains forever unholy and outcast from the presence of the Lord.

Our Lord Jesus Christ needed not to suffer millions of eternities before His people could be considered holy and allowed into the presence and joy of God. What the magnitude of the aggregate sin of the elect may be God alone knows. What would satisfy God on their behalf God alone may declare. That substitutionary sacrifice which God determined was necessary for the chosen of God to be made holy was inflicted upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in time and real history. It is finished. God is satisfied.

 

[blakerussell]

Man who is born in sin can never be made pure and holy by any human means. Being constitutionally and experientially sinful he can never dwell in that holy habitation of God who is holy. When unsanctified man dies he is cast into hell forever. His condition there cannot and will not change -ever. There is no remedy for him. There will not, and indeed cannot be any remedy for his condition. He must remain eternally damned, separated from the thrice holy God. Inasmuch as his condition and status continues forever he must then remain forever in pain and torment. If it were possible for his torments to expunge even the tiniest particle of one of his least sins then one might imagine that in some finite number of millennia he might eventually be purged of every particle of his sin. But even an eternity of torments atones not for the least of his sin. Thus he remains forever unholy and outcast from the presence of the Lord.

Our Lord Jesus Christ needed not to suffer millions of eternities before His people could be considered holy and allowed into the presence and joy of God. What the magnitude of the aggregate sin of the elect may be God alone knows. What would satisfy God on their behalf God alone may declare. That substitutionary sacrifice which God determined was necessary for the chosen of God to be made holy was inflicted upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in time and real history. It is finished. God is satisfied.

Thanks for the answers everyone. I think this was the answer I was looking for.

 

[Loopie]

One point that I started to really ponder while listening to Dr. James White on The Dividing Line is when he asked the question: "Does a person in hell stop sinning?" I honestly had never considered before the concept that even though unbelievers spend eternity in hell, this does not at all mean that they stop hating God. I mean, we all would agree that in some sense a person never 'ceases to exist', but continues to exist eternally either apart from God or in the presence of God.

In light of this we should not think that if a person only sins for about 85 years, that it would be unfair for them to be punished eternally (because this asumes that when judgment day comes they stop sinning).

Furthermore, in our own society, murdering someone is usually only an act that takes a few minutes to accomplish. Yet why does a person get sent to prison for life? In light of that fact we can see that the 'length' or 'timing' of a transgression is not nearly as important as the 'depth' or 'offense' of the sin. And like others before have mentioned, God is infinite, and so our transgressions need to be viewed in light of who we are offending. In the same way, Jesus' suffering and death on the cross did not need to be infinite in 'length' or 'time', but rather it was infinite in 'depth' and 'measure'.

Hope that helps in some way.

 

[earl40]

The penalty that Christ endured was not "limited" by three days in the tomb

So was "it is finished" not really the end of the atonement?

 

[py3ak]

Thomas Aquinas, De Malo:

A finite act turns a person away from the infinite good, and so sin is essentially finite, although it has a relationship to the infinite good.

I think it is a confusion of categories to state that the sufferings of Christ were infinite. It is a maxim of Reformed theology that the finite is not capable of the infinite. The sufferings of Christ were of infinite worth or value because offered on the altar of his divine nature. It was the dignity of the person that made the sufferings have value. The important point is that they were the same in kind, death and wrath, as what is the portion of any ordinary sinner.

I'm not sure it can be shown that the sufferings of a sinner have any expiatory value: it would be quite a hard case to make. When the state doesn't change how can the outward condition which is its logical outcome be modified? Only by sovereign grace, which at that point is not exercised in that direction.

 

[blakerussell]

So many answers, so much to chew on.
To clarify if I must, I do not believe the sufferings of a sinner have any atoning value.
At any rate, Christ's sufferings were sufficient. It's a mystery I guess, but Jesus being enough is crystal clear.

 

[toddpedlar]

The penalty that Christ endured was not "limited" by three days in the tomb

So was "it is finished" not really the end of the atonement?

No, that's not what Pastor Buchanan's words implied at all. It would be easier to see that this is the case if you hadn't cut his sentence off midway as if what you quoted was a complete thought by itself. If you read the whole of the paragraph you can see plainly that what he was saying is that the fact that Jesus was in the tomb only three days and hung on the cross only six hours is no evidence in favor of the proposition that somehow the punishment he endured was finite. No, rather, because Jesus was the spotless, perfect Lamb of God - in fact, God Himself - the punishment was infinite, no matter how long it lasted.

 

[earl40]

The penalty that Christ endured was not "limited" by three days in the tomb

So was "it is finished" not really the end of the atonement?

No, that's not what Pastor Buchanan's words implied at all. It would be easier to see that this is the case if you hadn't cut his sentence off midway as if what you quoted was a complete thought by itself. If you read the whole of the paragraph you can see plainly that what he was saying is that the fact that Jesus was in the tomb only three days and hung on the cross only six hours is no evidence in favor of the proposition that somehow the punishment he endured was finite. No, rather, because Jesus was the spotless, perfect Lamb of God - in fact, God Himself - the punishment was infinite, no matter how long it lasted.

Dear Todd....I read the entire statement and I loved what Rev. Bruce wrote. Though within his post he did say that part of the punishment was that the body of Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days. "The penalty that Christ endured was not "limited" by three days in the tomb, or 6 hours on the cross, except in a restricted and temporal sense." I should have added a wink at the end of my first post to say I was just being a nit picker. Sorry Rev. Bruce if you took it any other way.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

No harm, no foul, as they say...