Featured Question re. Incarnation

Discussion in 'Theological Forum' started by lynnie, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    When Jesus incarnated in the womb of Mary, did heaven empty out for nine months of the second person of the Godhead? When Phil 2 says essentially he laid aside his power and glory and what he had in heaven with the father to come to earth and be a man, did the angels have nine months where all of a sudden heaven just had the Father and HS and not the eternal Word?

    We were talking at midweek about the angels singing at his birth....were they waiting for it for nine months and maybe even missing him do you think? Or was he somehow in his deity still sort of there? If that is true, can you explain what that looked like better?

    Thanks. This is probably basic but my husband thought about for a while and said to ask at the PB :)
     
  2. Southern Presbyterian

    Southern Presbyterian Moderator Staff Member

    "The secret things belong to the Lord. . . ."
    Deut. 29:29

    This is definitely a secret thing.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  3. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    How could heaven be missing the second person of the Trinity when God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three persons in one and God is omnipresent? No, heaven wasn't missing the second person of the Trinity while Mary was pregnant. As soon as Mary became pregnant, Jesus was incarcerated thus became in that split second of time the God-man.
     
  4. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    Christ’s actions have been described as the laying aside, while incarnated, of the independent use of His divine attributes. We find this is a consistent view with Scripture revealing Him using divine powers and displaying His glories on occasion (e.g., miracles, the Transfiguration), yet always in accord with the Father and the Holy Spirit (see Luke 4:14; John 5:19; 8:28; 14:10).

    While Our Lord walked the earth, He limited the independent use of any of His divine attributes. This in no way means God the Son divested Himself of His divinity and was not in possession of all the divine attributes. In other words, while Our Lord walked the earth, the Second Person of the Trinity was still omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, upholding all creation, and so forth.

    Two useful items related to the incarnation can be found here:
    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/anhypostasis-what-kind-of-flesh-did-Jesus-take

    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/enhypostasis-what-kind-of-flesh-did-the-word-become

    You will find them edifying.
     
  5. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    Yes, He was eventually incarcerated, but before that He was incarnated. ;)

    Sorry, I could not resist, sister.
     
  6. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    Hahahaha! Stupid autocorrector! That was super funny!
     
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  7. py3ak

    py3ak They're stalling and plotting against me Staff Member

    No, the 2nd Person was always present in heaven (John 3:13). The humiliation of the incarnation did not consist in any loss or restriction of divinity, but in the addition of a human nature to the divine person. Accompanying this was a veiling of the glory of the God-man in the state of humiliation.
     
  8. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    As Patrick and Rueben have elaborated, as well as Sinclair Ferguson, while growing in the womb, he was upholding the universe.
     
  9. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    Thank you for the replies. And those were good links Mr R. The second one reminded me of that recent debate about peccable/impeccable. The way it describes what happened makes it impossible that the incarnated Jesus could potentially sin.

    I wont pretend I really understand the trinity and incarnation but this is very helpful. I guess my question sort of divided them up into three more than keeping them one. Thanks again.
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Senior

    God the Son left His heavenly abode, and was incarnated as the person of Jesus Christ, and so the Second Person of the Trinity became eternally the God/Man.
     
  11. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    This language must be qualified in light of perichoresis......never was this in jeopardy in the incarnation....
     
  12. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    David,

    Is it your view that the omnipresent God the Son is everywhere present with a glorified body since "the Second Person of the Trinity became eternally the God/Man"?
     
  13. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Senior

    I believe that Jesus was limited to being in a single location while here upon the earth due to Him being in the very form of a Human , but once he ascended and was re glorified with His full glory once again in heaven, that he would be seated at right hand of God, but also everywhere at the same time.
     
  14. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    You are not directly answering my question, David.

    Do you mean to say "everywhere at the same time" includes the glorified body of Our Lord? That this glorified body is spacially unlimited?

    Do you understand that the divine nature, the Second Person of the Trinity, is not limited to the physical location of the presently existing glorified body of Jesus in Heaven?

    Are you advocating that the divine attributes are somehow communicated (possessed by) to the human nature of Our Lord, contrary to "two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation" (Council of Chalcedon)?
     
  15. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Senior

    No, My understanding is that right now, Jesus is everywhere , as He is God, but he is also the glorified God/Man seated at the right hand of the Father.
    Jesus was physically limited to just being where he was while her on Earth, but is no longer hindered by that after His resurrection and ascension.
     
  16. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    David,

    If Jesus was physically limited to geography while walking the earth, where was the Second Person of the Trinity at that time? Was that Person, God the Son, similarly geographically confined to Israel?

    Do you see the issue here?
     
  17. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Senior

    Wasn't the Second person of the trinity incarnated as the man Jesus though?
     
  18. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    David,

    I am trying to be patient here. Please answer my previously asked questions directly:

    1. If Jesus was physically limited to geography while walking the earth, where was the Second Person of the Trinity at that time?

    2. Was that Person, God the Son, similarly geographically confined to Israel?

    Just answer them as best you are able without asking more questions. I will be happy to answer more questions once we establish some of the basics.
     
  19. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Senior

    I think that the very essense of the Second person of the Godhead became Human flesh and lived among us, but that all of the fullness of Him was not in Himself as Jesus, as God was still in heaven and here. How he can do that, I honestly do not know.
     
  20. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    I think this is part of the problem: the "essence of the second person of the Godhead" didn't "become" anything. That immutable (unchageable) nature was united to a physical body, hypostatically, but it did not change in any way, shape or form.
     
  21. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Senior

    What became and was created was the Human called Jesus, and within Him are both the natures of God and sinless humanity, correct?
     
  22. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    No, David.

    The humanity of Jesus was not individuated. The Second Person of the Trinity took on a human nature, not a man named Jesus who would have existed had there been no incarnation. Had this been the case there would be two persons in the incarnate Christ, not one person.

    Please take a look at the two links in my post above:
    https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/question-re-incarnation.94389/#post-1151788

    It is best not to just weigh in a thread until you have at least familiarized yourself with what has come earlier in the thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  23. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Senior

    So Jesus was direct result of God the Son incarnating Himself into Mary via the Holy Spirit, and thus would mean just one person, who would have both natures of God and perfect humanity, correct?
     
  24. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    extra calvinisticum: The Logos was in the womb of the Virgin, but the divine nature was still upholding all things (thus, the extra). Part of the confusion is our natural tendency to view heaven as sort of a container notion of space.
     
  25. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    You are getting there, David.

    God the Son took upon Himself a human nature, not some skin suit, but a genuine human nature, not an individual human being (John, Bill, Henry, Jesus). This mystical union, hypostatic union, whereby the second subsistence of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused.

    The union of the divine and human natures of Jesus Christ is not:

    1. a denial that our Lord was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
    2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
    3. a denial that our Lord had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
    4. a denial of a distinct subsistence in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
    5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
    6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
    7. two distinct subsistences (often called persons) (Nestorianism);
    8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
    9. a view that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
    10. a view that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
    11. a view that our Lord existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).

    Note that boldface portion at #7 above. Therein lies some of your misunderstandings that would have some claim you are advocating Nestorianism based upon what you have posted. Be careful, David.

    The heresies in boldface above were denounced by The Chalcedonian Definition is one of the few statements that all of orthodox Christendom recognizes as the most faithful summary of the teachings of the Scriptures on the matter of the Incarnate Christ. The Chalcedonian Definition was the answer to the many heterodoxies identified above during the third century.
     
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  26. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

  27. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    While I have read Letham, I was disappointed in his affinity for Eastern views over the West. We are all caught up in modalism and basically Nestorians unless we can affirm God has feelings like a man. There is cheese down his many tunnels in the book, but it will take work to get to them. Sigh.
     
  28. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    My problem is that he lists all of the West's problems from the East's perspective, but then when he critiques the East, he faults them from the West's perspectives.
     
  29. timfost

    timfost Puritan Board Junior

    David,

    Belgic 19 may be helpful here:

    "...yet each nature retains its own distinct properties. As, then, the divine nature has always remained uncreated, without beginning of days or end of life, filling heaven and earth, so also has the human nature not lost its properties but remained a creature, having beginning of days, being a finite nature, and retaining all the properties of a real body. And though He has by His resurrection given immortality to the same, nevertheless He has not changed the reality of His human nature; forasmuch as our salvation and resurrection also depend on the reality of His body. But these two natures are so closely united in one Person that they were not separated even by His death. Therefore that which He, when dying, commended into the hands of His Father, was a real human spirit, departing from His body. But in the meantime the divine nature always remained united with the human, even when He lay in the grave; and the Godhead did not cease to be in Him, any more than it did when He was an infant, though it did not so clearly manifest itself for a while."
     
  30. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Senior

    Thanks for you and all of those posters here helping me on this issue, as it can be very easy to not realize that we cna start discusiing Jesus in non biblical ways, such as when sometimes people make it sound like He was flipping back and forth in the Gospels when he acted from His humanity, and then acting out from his divinity, like 2 separate persons almost.
     

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