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If read judiciously, this thread will show this topic debated back and forth from various viewpoints.
When someone asserts an apparent contradiction they are not embracing simply A and ~A. They are embrace A1 and A2. Which simply means that there is a equivocation but we are not certain how to exactly spell it out.
For example when Van Til wrote that God is one person and three persons, he was not asserting that God is one person and three persons in exactly the same way both time the term person is used. What he was saying is that I cannot spell out how the terms differ in use, just that there is an equivocation.
CT
Here is a link to an article by Van Tillian James Anderson called: In Defense of Mystery, which is a defense of rationality of embracing apparent contradictions concerning the Trinity -
http://www.proginosko.com/docs/InDefenceOfMystery.pdf
I think the same idea can be apply to anywhere one believes an biblical apparent contradiction exists.
CT
My proposal, by way of comparison, has the following virtues: it can accommodate all the relevant biblical data; it avoids violating any of the classical laws of logic; it explains how Trinitarian beliefs can be warranted despite the appearance of contradiction; it allows for the definition and exclusion of anti-Trinitarian heresies such as Sabellianism and Arianism; and it fits neatly with the traditional Christian doctrines of analogy and divine incomprehensibility. I suggest therefore that it is to be preferred.
If you are asking if the Bible uses the same term in different ways in different places, then yes.So the Bible is full of equivocations?
In section 10, Witsius maintains, along with all reformed theologians, that reason, although corrupted, is still reason, and man is unable to know or judge anything except by use of it. He states, "si Divinae res, si mysteria religionis cognoscenda sint, non aliter id fieri potest nisi per rationem" (p. 462). Translation: "if divine things, if the mysteries of religion may be known, it can be no other way than by reason." He goes on to show that faith itself, considered as assent, is an operation of reason; and goes so far as to call him an irrational being who denies this fact.
Witsius turns his attention in section 11 to self-evident truths, or the axioms of reason, of which, he says, "neque possit homo a se impetrare ut assentiatur contrario" (ibid.). Translation: "nor is man able by himself to procure his assent to the contrary."
After speaking of the force of reason to deduce from these axiomatic principles certain inferences which he calls the dictates of "right reason" (sect. 12); and showing that God is the author of reason and uses it to teach men, so that the dictates of reason may be called "the dictates of God" (sect. 13); and after conceding that reason is subordinate to Scripture so far as the articles of faith are concerned (sect. 14), Witsius maintains in section 15 that self-evident truths or the dicates of reason cannot be violated. Truth cannot be contrary to truth, and neither can God be contrary to Himself. This he applies specifically to the supernatural revelation God makes of Himself: "consequens est, nunquam Deum supernaturali revelatione aliquid homini patefacere, quod repugnet veritatibus per se notis, sive rectae rationis dictamini" (p. 463). Translation: "it follows, God never discloses anything by supernatural revelation to man which is repugnant to truths well known by themselves, or the dictates of right reason." He then concludes with this norma or rule: "ut nihil recipiatur tanquam a Deo revelatum, quod principiis natura cognitis revera contrarium sit" (ibid.). Translation: "that nothing is received as a revelation from God which may be contrary to the principles really known by nature."
For Witsius, therefore, the doctrines of Christianity are received as a supernatural revelation from God, and therefore may be above reason, that is, beyond the ability of reason to discover; but they are never contrary to right reason. Man is never required to believe what is naturally repugnant.
It is true, no article of faith is really repugnant to reason; for God is the author of natural as well as of supernatural light, and he cannot contradict himself: they are emanations from him, and though different, yet not destructive of each other. But we must distinguish between those things that are above reason and incomprehensible, and things that are against reason and utterly inconceivable. Some things are above reason, in regard of their transcendent excellency or distance from us. The divine essence, the eternal decrees, the hypostatical union, are such high and glorious objects that it is an impossible enterprise to comprehend them: the intellectual eye is dazzled with their overpowering light; we can have but an imperfect knowledge of them. And there is no just cause of wonder that supernatural revelation should speak incomprehensible things of God; for he is a singular and admirable Being, infinitely above the ordinary course of nature. The maxims of philosophy are not to be extended to him. We must adore what we cannot fully understand. But those things are against reason and utterly inconceivable, that involve a contradiction, and have a natural repugnancy to our understandings, which cannot conceive any thing that is formally impossible: and there is no such doctrine in the Christian religion.
We must distinguish between reason corrupted, and right reason. Since the fall, the clearness of the human understanding is lost, and the light that remains is eclipsed by the interposition of sensual lusts. The carnal mind cannot out of ignorance, and will not from pride and other malignant habits, receive things spiritual. And from hence arise many suspicions and doubts concerning supernatural verities, the shadows of darkened reason and of dying faith. If any divine mystery seems incredible, it is from the corruption of our reason not from reason itself; from its darkness, not its light. And as reason is obliged to correct the errors of sense, when it is deceived either by some vicious quality in the organ, or by the distance of the object, or by the falseness of the medium that corrupts the image in conveying it; so it is the office of faith to reform the judgment of reason, when, either from its own weakness, or the height of things spiritual, it is mistaken about them. For this end supernatural revelation was given, not to extinguish reason, but to redress it, and enrich it with the discovery of heavenly things.
Faith is called wisdom and knowledge: it doth not quench the vigour of the faculty wherein it is seated, but elevates it, and gives it a spiritual perception of those things that are most distant from its commerce. It doth not lead us through a mist to the inheritance of the saints in light. Faith is a rational light; for,
(1.) It arises from the consideration of those arguments which convince the mind that the scripture is a divine revelation. “I know,” saith the apostle, “whom I have believed,” 2 Tim. 1:12; and we are commanded always to be ready to give an account of the hope that is in us, 1 Peter 3:15. Those that owe their Christianity merely to the felicity of their birth, without a sight of that transcendent excellency in our religion which evidences that it came from heaven, are not true believers. He that absolves an innocent person for favour, without considering sufficient proofs offered, though his sentence is just, is an unjust judge; and the eye that is clouded with a suffusion, so that all things appear yellow to it, when it judges things to be yellow that are so, yet is erroneous, because its judgment proceeds not from the quality of the object, but from the jaundice that discolours the organs: so those who believe the doctrine of the gospel upon the account of its civil establishment in their country, are not right believers, because they assent to the word of truth upon a false principle. It is not judgment, but chance, that inclines them to embrace it. The Turks are zealous votaries of Mahomet, upon the same reason as they are disciples of Christ.
(2.) Faith makes use of reason to consider what doctrines are revealed in the scripture, and to deduce those consequences which have a clear connection with supernatural principles. Thus reason is an excellent instrument to distinguish those things which are of a divine original, from what is spurious and counterfeit; for sometimes that is pretended to be a mystery of religion, which is only the fruit of fancy; and that is defended by the sacred respect of faith that reason ought not to violate, which is but a groundless imagination; so that we remain in an error, by the sole apprehension of falling into one, as those that die for fear of death. The Bereans are commended for their searching the scriptures, whether the doctrines they heard were consentaneous to them, Acts 17:11. But it is a necessary duty, that reason, how stiff soever, should fully comply with God, where it appears reasonable that he hath spoken.
Thus, for me, there are certain things that I do not understand as far as the counsel of the Almighty. At the points that He tells me His counsel is hidden, I would say it is reasonable to place my hand over my mouth and not speculate.
I sometimes wonder if the need for "apparent contradiction" is because some want a license not for clear and necessary deduction but for speculation itself. What would have been reasonable (stopping where God's revelation does) becomes irrational.
If you are asking if the Bible uses the same term in different ways in different places, then yes.
CT
Hello Gentlemen,
Consider the Trinity in light of the Hypostatic Union. You have one being made up of three persons. In addition to this, one of these persons is said to be fully God and fully man. This whole convoluted (do not take 'convoluted' in a prejorative sense) situation appears to be inconsistent. Now, I do not believe it is inconsistent because I think it is what Scripture teaches and I think whatever Scripture teaches will be consistent even if I cannot see it. I agree that my understanding is lacking, but it may be the case that because of my finitude I will never be able to understand some things such as the Hypostatic Union and the Trinity - especially taken together. In this sense, I can say that I am embracing an apparent contradiction. I do not believe it is an actual contradiction. But, I cannot adequately explain the situation so as to make things explicitly consistent. My guess is that everyone on this board is in the same situation as I am. In the end, we accept the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union with all the difficulties it presents our minds because we believe it to be taught by Scripture.
Sincerely,
Brian
You have one being made up of three persons. In addition to this, one of these persons is said to be fully God and fully man.
I can see that these doctrines are difficult, but what is the "apparent" contradiction in them. Nothing you said involves a contradiction (apparent or otherwise).
It seems to me you have actually avoided the appearance of any contradiction.
The Trinity: God is one in essence, and three in persons.
Hypostatic Union: Jesus is both fully God and fully man.
Now I haven't joined these two statements into a single argument because they are not using the same terms in the same sense. I did not say simply that "Jesus is God", but more specifically that "Jesus is fully God". To me this means that Jesus is one person of the Trinity. He is also (according to the doctrine of the Trinity) one in essence with the Godhead.
Contradictions may occur if we incorrectly define some of the terms used in the Doctrine of the Trinity and the Doctrine of Hypostatic Union. The apparent contradictions may occur when we speculate beyond what Scripture clearly reveals.
We may not know for certain what the exact relationship is between the Trinity and Hypostatic Union, but we can say for certain that if we define the terms of the Trinity and Hypostatic Union in such a way as they cause a contradiction, then we are wrong.
Rather, we should allow that our knowledge and understanding has it's limits, and we reject any thing that violates our reasoning.
Here is the heart of the matter. Is our reasoning the final arbiter when confronted by things that may be beyond us? Or, do we acknowledge the limitations of even our own reasoning and embrace apparent contradiction on the basis of the one asking us to embrace it? In other words, if God said to you A and B are true, yet in your understanding B entailed ~A, would you humble your intellect to God's word? If so, then you agree with Van Til on this point. If not, then you place your own reasoning above God's word. Of this whole post (and thread), this last point is the key.
Sincerely,
Brian
Gordon Clark was labeled as a rationalist by the Van Tillians for proposing a logical solution to the problem of God's sovereignty and human responsibility.
But what if, for person X, B does not entail ~A? I made mention of this earlier. Gordon Clark was labeled as a rationalist by the Van Tillians for proposing a logical solution to the problem of God's sovereignty and human responsibility.
What you're saying about humbling ourselves before God's Word makes perfect sense as long as we live in a world in which everyone agrees that A and B lead to an "apparent contradiction." But what if it isn't a contradiction for someone? Why is the limit of Van Til's ability to reconcile something the final arbiter of what is and isn't possible to be reconciled? Why is the limit of Van Til's intellectual capacity the rule against which we will measure someone and call them either a humble individual who "just accepts God's Word" (if they accept the "apparent contradictions" popularly accepted) or an arrogant rationalist?
Source? I’m willing to bet this isn’t what Van Tilians argue. Even Van Tilians argue for logical solutions to the problem of God’s sovereignty and human responsibility.
Here then is a situation which is inadequately described as amazing. There is a problem which has baffled the greatest theologians in history. Not even Holy Scripture offers a solution. But Dr. Clark asserts unblushingly that for his thinking the problem has ceased to be a problem. Here is something phenomenal. What accounts for it? The most charitable, and no doubt the correct, explanation is that Dr. Clark has come under the spell of rationalism. It is difficult indeed to escape the conclusion that by his refusal to permit the scriptural teaching of divine sovereignty and the scriptural teaching of human responsibility to stand alongside each other and by his claim that he has fully reconciled them with each other before the bar of human reason Dr. Clark has fallen into the error of rationalism. To be sure, he is not a rationalist in the sense that he substitutes human reasoning for divine revelation as such. But, to say nothing of his finding the solution of the problem of the relation to each other of divine sovereignty and human responsibility in the teaching of pagan philosophers who were totally ignorant of the teaching of Holy Writ on either of these subjects, it is clear that Dr. Clark regards Scripture from the viewpoint of a system which to the mind of man must be harmonious in all its parts. The inevitable outcome is rationalism in the interpretation of Scripture. And that too is rationalism. Although Dr. Clark does not claim actually to possess at the present moment the solution of every scriptural paradox, yet his rationalism leaves room at best for only a temporary subjection of human reason to the divine Word....
Also, can you quote Gordon Clark and give his answer to the sovereignty/moral responsibility problem. I apologize if I come off bad in this post, because that is not my intent. I do really want to have Clarks answer to this problem summed up, as I have not seen it yet in other threads. Thanks, ~Caleb
Who said anything about Van Til by himself? It is not like everyone was solving a certain problem then Van Til said, I just can't see it, and then everyone just started saying it was unsolvable. Mystery and Apparent contradiction etc. has been accepted for a long period of time in the church.
Next, lets say someone was able to "solve" a certain paradox, that before everyone else could not solve? What would have been gained? Until you solve every last one, you really have not gained that much.
CT
I sometimes wonder if the need for "apparent contradiction" is because some want a license not for clear and necessary deduction but for speculation itself. What would have been reasonable (stopping where God's revelation does) becomes irrational.
If my understanding is that A and B entail a contradiction, then to believe them implicitly would be to impugn God as the author of a contradiction. For my understanding of A and B to entail a contradiction, I must believe that only one can be true, and the other must be false. That is what it means for A and B to appear entail a contradiction.In other words, if God said to you A and B are true, yet in your understanding B entailed ~A, would you humble your intellect to God's word?
I disagree. It is not necessarily the case that further speculation of the meaning of the terms will lead to a contradiction. In fact, I think it is important for us to go further so as to make sure we are not making any assumptions which lead to contradictions. You see, one can only say that there is an apparent contradiction if one has consciously speculated some definition of the terms that lead to contradictions. If the doctrines of the Trinity and Hypostatic Union are truly implied by Scripture, then we can speculate regarding the definitions of the terms involved without necessarily coming to a contradiction. In fact, by doing this, we can eliminate possible definitions which are clearly not correct. We still may not know for certain what the perfectly correct definitions are, but we can a least determine which ones can not possibly be true at the same time. This is why we are to reason through the Word with prayer. We are to understand the Word as best we can, trusting in the Holy Spirit to guide us to truth. If we don't reason out the meaning of Scripture, then we will never grow spiritually in the knowledge of Christ.The trouble we encounter is that speculation is desired because the terms end up being underdefined. With these underdefined terms it may be the case that we are not able to go any further and still avoid a contradiction.
The problem is that you have no standard to say which quandaries are the ones we should spend our time trying to solve and which are "beyond us." There is a huge difference in saying "we don't have an answer yet" and saying "an answer is not possible and anyone who tries to produce one is in grave error."
I suppose that one would say that if we can't solve every paradox now then we just need to wait, since the development of theology in general also didn't happen overnight. But telling everyone to just believe what they don't understand would slow the process down, don't you think? We have many less minds working diligently than we could.
And likewise you have no standard by which to say X is solvable and that Y is not. So one big question is what do I lose by not solving a solvable but difficult paradox? What is at stake? There is always a finite amount of time to spend on any issue. So why would I spend a great deal of time on a problem that may not have a solution.
As a side note, all of the admonitions in the scripture to acquire understanding, the elevation of the value of true knowledge and wisdom, and the rejoicing of men like David (Ps 119 et al.) in the understanding found in God's word would seem misplaced. The hidden thoughts of God and the "mystery" of his (secret) will and his ways (providence) are often areas in which scripture requires silence on our behalf but where is God's revealed word ever spoken of in such a way?
The revealed things are for us and our children. Those that are not revealed are not for us to know. Truths such as the Trinity and sovereignty/responsibility are revealed truths in scripture. They are descriptive, qualitative concepts which aren't the same as asking, like Job, "why is this happening to me?" God has not revealed to Job or to anyone else why providence looks the way it does. He has however, revealed things like I previously mentioned. So why should we act as if it's impossible to understand them, seeing that they are revealed?
Actually, when Scripture uses the term mystery, it always speaks of what was hidden, but is now made known. Mystery in Scriptures are revealed knowledge. So you are correct: mystery, those things that were hidden in the past, but are now revealed in Christ, are essential to theology.On top of all this, the Bible does not every give anyone any indication that all mysteries can be solved, and it is Reformed orthodoxy that mystery is essential to Theology.
What are these paradoxes? There must by many you can list.To be fair concerning the development of theology, there have been very few if any paradoxes solved. What has been done is the Biblical data has been clearly put together into a system. An interesting side effect is that as the picture becomes clearer, the mystery comes into better focus, or put another way, our limits become much more clearly defined.
Gordon Clark was labeled as a rationalist by the Van Tillians for proposing a logical solution to the problem of God's sovereignty and human responsibility”
Nobody is claiming that "anyone who tries to produce one is in grave error".There is a huge difference in saying "we don't have an answer yet" and saying "an answer is not possible and anyone who tries to produce one is in grave error."
Well, in particular, to relate this particular discussion back to the OP, presuppositional apologetics is at stake. My question was how we can be intellectually honest by using a system of apologetics to point out inconsistencies and irrationality in other world views while embracing them in our own. It sounds self-defeating.
If my understanding is that A and B entail a contradiction, then to believe them implicitly would be to impugn God as the author of a contradiction.
For my understanding of A and B to entail a contradiction, I must believe that only one can be true, and the other must be false. That is what it means for A and B to appear entail a contradiction.
If something "appears" to you to be a contradiction - you are saying, that as far as you understand, they can not both be true. To believe implicitly what you believe is a contradiction is not simple irrational, it's impossible. It is immediately self defeating. It is to say I can believe in round squares when I also say I believe that round squares are a contradiction.
But this does not make it is necessary that God's word appears to be self contradictory to us. This is poor reasoning on Van Til's part.
Second: Let P = (p1 + p2 + p3 + p4...) be propositions of God's Word and are all true. Then no any combination of (p1, p2, p3, p4, ...) will cause a contradiction.
It is not necessarily the case that further speculation of the meaning of the terms will lead to a contradiction.
If the doctrines of the Trinity and Hypostatic Union are truly implied by Scripture, then we can speculate regarding the definitions of the terms involved without necessarily coming to a contradiction.
Actually, when Scripture uses the term mystery, it always speaks of what was hidden, but is now made known. Mystery in Scriptures are revealed knowledge. So you are correct: mystery, those things that were hidden in the past, but are now revealed in Christ, are essential to theology.