Questions to ask someone going on a summer mission trip

[sastark]

Wednesday night a friend who I haven't seen in a long itme is coming over for dinner. He is a great guy, though not reformed. I know this friend is going on a summer mission trip to China with Intervarsity. I have a sneaky feeling that he is going to ask my wife and me to support him financially. I don't think I can do this in good conscience, since he is not reformed and the group he is going with is very much not reformed. However, I don't want to just tell him "No!" I would rather ask him some questions that will make him think about why I am not going to be able to support him.

Does anyone have some suggestions of what I can say/ask him?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Christopher]

Say, "What do you mean you want money! Do I look like your daddy?! You think I am going to give money to a stinkin' arminian like you so you can go over there and mix up those poor people with the wrong gospel!?!?!" I am just kidding. I would in all seriousness do as Paul said above.

 

[Ranger]

Don't just give him a fish, teach him to fish and let him catch it himself.....(I really don't know how that relates).

If you can afford it, help him out.

 

[fredtgreco]

Ask him why Intervarsity.

Ask him why a Church is not the sending agency.

Ask what he hopes to accomplish during the summer.

Ask him what his church thinks of his going, and how much support they are giving him (you would be surprised how many people do not ask their church and instead hit up their friends).

If you get decent answers to questions, I would support him, but I would do so at a level less than what I would if the situation were ideal.

For example, if I could give $1000, I would give him maybe $500 and tell him that I don't agree with the methodology, but because he is my friend and I trust him I am willing to give him some support.

For me the parachurch thing is much worse than the non-Reformed thing. I HATE parachurches.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:48e2b7285e][i:48e2b7285e]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:48e2b7285e]
those are good questions Fred.

I hope we would all agree that when the Bible tells us to give to those in need (assuming this is a need... there are spiritual needs) one of the requirements is not doctrinal percision.

Jesus says that what we do for "one of the [i:48e2b7285e]least[/i:48e2b7285e] of these you have done for me."

-Paul [/quote:48e2b7285e]

Absolutely. But we must also remember (and I know you do) that we are to be wise stewards. So if I have $1000 to give to missions, and I have a choice between various needs, I will take into account many factors:

1. Parachurch ministries get support last of all.

2. Short term trips go to the back of the line. They are mostly for the "missionary" and have VERY little impact on missions. (I say this as the husband of a woman who spent 2 years in Japan)

3. Theology is important.

4. Support from one's church is important. if you can't get your own church to support you, why should I?

So I might not choose between this person and a new computer, but I might choose between this person and a gift to one of my church's missionaries.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:577c49bd76][i:577c49bd76]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:577c49bd76]
yup...that's why the key phrase is *if* you have the money. If you have given to all your designated groups or people and you have the money you can give it to him. I wouldn't suggest saying, "hold on, let me see if there is someone out there I'd rather give this money to."...cause there allways is [/quote:577c49bd76]

Understood. But I also would on principle not ever give to a parachurch organization under any circumstances related to "ministry" or missions unless I believed it was a personal favor for a friend. Here the friend would in essence gain some credence for the ministry.

Typically, unless the friend is very close (I have turned down members of my church) my standard answer is always, "No. I do not give to parachurch ministries. Ever. God has a chosen instrument for evangelism, missions and the Christian life. It is called the Church."

 

[luvroftheWord]

Parachurch isn't all bad, guys. Otherwise, the only seminary we would all go to is Covenant Seminary in St. Louis since it is the PCA's seminary. RTS and WTS are parachurch because they are not tied to an official church.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:dede50edb8][i:dede50edb8]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:dede50edb8]
Parachurch isn't all bad, guys. Otherwise, the only seminary we would all go to is Covenant Seminary in St. Louis since it is the PCA's seminary. RTS and WTS are parachurch because they are not tied to an official church. [/quote:dede50edb8]

But Craig, RTS and WTS have no authority. They have no ministry. They do not ordain one man. Without the Church, frankly, they are nothing. It is presbyteries (and churches) that ordain men.

It is different than Focus on the Family or Intervarsity.

No one is disputing that even the wrath of men can be turned to the praise of God.

This dispute is at least a century old, and the fate of Princeton and the state of the Church prove that Thornwell was right and Hodge wrong.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:c31a56bf30][i:c31a56bf30]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:c31a56bf30]
but that is your opinion.

Some may feel "led" to do that.

I concur with Warfield that God can strike a straight blow with a crooked stick. He will acomlish His ends even by using "para church" ornagizations. [/quote:c31a56bf30]

So someone should trust his feeling of being led rather than the word of God in Matthew 28?

Paul, don't tell me that we're dropping back to 94%?

 

[lkjohnson]

Fred has given some good advice, but there are two more important questions I would ask anyone going on a mission trip, especially one to another country/culture.

First. What is your purpose in going and can you reasonably accomplish this even though you do not speak the language nor deal with the culture?

Second. Are you active in evangelism here at home?

(Excuse me while I rant. )

Because I am bilingual I am often asked to go on mission trips into Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries. For the most part I have stopped accepting these invitations because these trips are at best ineffective and usually end up doing more harm than good. American culture, even American Christian culture, is so much more liberal than the cultures in other countries that the impression left on believers and unbelievers alike in the target country is very often negative. Furthermore, Americans are for the most part so unaware of their own attitudes and actions that they come accross more as the stero-typical "dirty American" rather than a sincere messenger of God's redemption.

It has also been my experience that most people who go on short-term missions trips would normally not cross the street to tell someone about the gospel, yet they want to cross a border and witness to people they can't even talk to. There are many reasons to go on a mission trip. For many it is an opportunity to go on a vacation they normally could not have.

I still go on mission trips when I have a chance, but I am very picky about who I go with and who I support.

Lance

[Edited on 5-25-2004 by lkjohnson]

 

[JonathonHunt]

[quote:ab231e0708][i:ab231e0708]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:ab231e0708]
[quote:ab231e0708][i:ab231e0708]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:ab231e0708]
Parachurch isn't all bad, guys. Otherwise, the only seminary we would all go to is Covenant Seminary in St. Louis since it is the PCA's seminary. RTS and WTS are parachurch because they are not tied to an official church. [/quote:ab231e0708]

But Craig, RTS and WTS have no authority. They have no ministry. They do not ordain one man. Without the Church, frankly, they are nothing. It is presbyteries (and churches) that ordain men.

[/quote:ab231e0708]

So, should seminaries ordain men, or should the local church or presbytery? If a seminary is part of the ministry of a church (as is the one I attend) should it then ordain?

Just interested, not looking to start a war!

Jonathan

 

[fredtgreco]

No, ordination is for the church. A seminary can train but not ordain.

 

[Ianterrell]

I have a problem with mission trips too. Low grade theology. Unconverted missionaries. Teenage social excursions intended to build bonds rather than to save souls.

Fred echoes my sentiments pretty well, the apostles planted churches wherever they went. These far off places need elders and good sound churches. Not short-term missionaries.

 

[JonathonHunt]

[quote:e9ce99b1c3][i:e9ce99b1c3]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:e9ce99b1c3]
No, ordination is for the church. A seminary can train but not ordain. [/quote:e9ce99b1c3]

Just checking... I thought that was quite correct. I think I misunderstood your comments about Para Church Seminaries as opposed to Church Seminaries.

JH

 

[kceaster]

Seth...

Where is this person going? If they are going to do work among a poorer group of people, this would be what I would center the question on. Is it more philanthropic? This is my biggest peeve about modern missions. Many go to the 10-40 window because of health and social concerns. Does the Great Commission say anything about us going to another country to feed and clothe people as our primary concern?

This is exactly why Machen did the "unpresbyterian" thing by forming his own missions board. The gospel had taken a back seat to improved living conditions.

Don't get me wrong. These people need food, clothing, and medical care. But what they need worse is the true gospel preached. It is one thing to say to a brother, "be warm and well fed." We know James' admonishment not to overlook needs. But those are brothers and sisters. I believe James puts this in a covenant community context. The people who are being "served" in the 10-40 window, are largely not brothers and sisters. They need the gospel first.

I think it's equally true if we go to the poor in this country, or to Mexico. God did not commission us to build houses for the more unfortunate of our countrymen. God commissioned us to preach the Word.

So, if the missions trip is not gospel-centric, then it is no missions trip at all.

In Christ,

KC

 

[tcalbrecht]

[quote:b809bdf084][i:b809bdf084]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:b809bdf084]
No, ordination is for the church. A seminary can train but not ordain. [/quote:b809bdf084]

Which raises the question, why the need for denominational seminaries? Isn't this unnecessary bureaucracy?

I won't get started on denominational colleges, retreat centers, investment foundations, blah blah ...

 

[blhowes]

I agree to some extent with what's been said about short-term missions trips. I guess one way to tell if it was worthwhile would be to talk with the missionaries after the short-termers left. Were the short-termers helpful to the missionaries, or did the missionaries feel in a way like they had to babysit the group? Did they get the same amount or more work done with the extra "help", or is it catch-up time?

I also see a great value in short-term missions trips, especially for those considering doing it for the rest of their lives. You can read all you want from books and listen to missionaries tell their stories, but I would think that the first-hand experience is valuable as well. It can be even more valuable when the missionaries don't have you doing what we think missionaries do all the time (sit on the corners and pass out tracts), but have you do some of the more difficult chores they also have to do, such as building a church, washing clothes, etc. Its an excellent opportunity to see the less glamorous aspects of missionary life.

[b:b6dcf57ea1]Lance wrote:[/b:b6dcf57ea1]
Are you active in evangelism here at home?

I agree totally. Think of all the money that would be saved by those that don't evangelize here at home, but go to the missions field to find out if they're called to be a missionary. They could save themselves and their churches fists full of money by just examining their own lives right where they're at.

 

[sastark]

Wow.

Thanks for all the replies, guys.

Here is a summary of what I think you are all saying (and some of my thoughts about what has been said):


[b:5400e6a610]1- If he is your friend, support him for the sake of the friendship.[/b:5400e6a610]

This is the number one reason why I [i:5400e6a610]would[/i:5400e6a610] support him. He is a friend, and I know he has good intensions; however, I also know the local Intervarsity people (I went to Intervarsity at Sacramento State while I was going to school there). I 100% disagree with their "evangelism" methods (such as encouraging girls to go to frat parties so that they can engage unbelievers "where they are&quot. I fear what will be done to the name of Christ on behalf of the group going to China.

[b:5400e6a610]2- If it's a parachurch mission trip, be wary[/b:5400e6a610]

I couldn't agree more. I understand the proper way to send missionaries is through the church. In my mind, these "mission trips" are some where between vacations and pilgrimages. I really don't know what the results will be.

[b:5400e6a610]3- Find out what their goal in China is. Is it humanitarian or is it to preach the Gospel[/b:5400e6a610]

From what I know about previous mission trips with Intervarsity, it will be a "mix". The idea is to do good works in order to be able to share the Gospel. Not a horrible method, but I know that only one of the people going actually speaks Chinese (I could be wrong, there maybe two or three at the most out of about 15-20 people going). How can you preach, if you don't speak the language? Really.

[b:5400e6a610]4- Prioritize your missionary budget[/b:5400e6a610]

Fred, I wish I had $1000 laying around to give to missionaries. I know of a native Reformed church in the Congo that could use $1000 very badly. I also know that if I were to give to my friend, I would feel very guilty for not giving more to other missionaries. Perhaps my friend coming over for dinner is God's way of lovingly reminding me that I need to give more to the church in the Congo.

Here is the last thing: When I told my wife that I thought our friend might ask for financial support, she was very adamant about [b:5400e6a610]not[/b:5400e6a610] supporting an Intervarsity mission trip. That pretty much seals the deal for me. She understands that Intervarsity uses horrible evangelistic methods and that they will not be spreading a true gospel (but rather a wishy-washy arminian watered down "gospel", if you can still call it that).

And then Paul has to go and quote Jesus: "one of the least of these you have done for me." And now I just don't know any more. Gee, thanks.

 

[sastark]

[quote:423bb6b9aa][i:423bb6b9aa]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:423bb6b9aa]
[quote:423bb6b9aa]
such as encouraging girls to go to frat parties so that they can engage unbelievers "where they are
[/quote:423bb6b9aa]

eeeeps! I didn't know they did that. [/quote:423bb6b9aa]

Yeah. The girls that went were "friends" of mine. They really, truly did not understand why I had a problem with this method. Best example I have ever seen of blind leaders of the blind....

 

[Ianterrell]

One of the leaders of Campus Crusades at my school took a freshman out drinking as a witness. He said if she was going to get drunk she might as well get drunk with a Christian...riiiiiight.

This same group of "christian" do-gooders decided to invite this unconverted girl to evangelize. They had a non-christian teaching others about Christ. She said that made her feel "weird". I bet. I'd feel weird to if a group of muslims asked me to go slaughter infidels with them.

Happy ending to this story though. Some friends and I were able to preach the gospel to her, and teach her about the Bible. Today, by the grace of God, she is now a professing Christian (and quite calvinistic as well )

 

[DanielC]

10 months ago, I returned to the US after having been a missionary in Romania for two years (assisting Romanian presbyterian (IPC) church-planters). During that time I saw many interns and short-term teams come and go, some of whom were more helpful than others, and some of whom were more "needy" than others. Their help was quite varied, and consequently it is not easy for me to make a blanket statement on their value. But they were helpful, though I do have a difficult time trying to measure their "success." By what standard should one go about measuring the usefulness of short term missions anyway? Philip's time with the Ethiopean eunich was short, but God had His purposes fulfilled. Is it even right for mortals to presume to judge the effectiveness of the mysterious and holy workings of the Spirit?

Missions is difficult, and often missionaries go for years and years, losing their families and possessions and even their own lives, having seen little "progress" in all their efforts. I don't think that God is necessarily less glorified when that happens. Admittedly, short-termers have it pretty easy, normally don't know the language, and are often far less trained theologically. Nevertheless, they allowed us to run camps and/or do construction work that would have been far more difficult with only the few people who are there for a longer time. Short-termers (as well as long-termers) can wreck havoc too, so one has to be careful and discerning. I think the primary task of missions is church-planting (with the end being God's glory of course). That doesn't mean I'd rule out everything else. It was great to have a handy man around to use the gifts that God had given him to repair or build things that I and the other missionaries couldn't. Being a gifted exegete and instructor is not the only useful skill in the body of Christ.

So is short-term missions worthwhile? It can be. One thing is for certain - if God calls you to go, you'd better go. Missionaries bear witness to your love before the church; and you will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God.

Anyone out there willing to testify on the helpfulness of shor-term missions (who has actually been on a short or long term missions trip?)

 

[cupotea]

I've been on two, the past two summers, with Campus Crusade for Christ. The first one, I saw six "converts" who had no interest in meeting up with me again to learn about their new faith. We used "The Four Spiritual Laws" the entire time. I shared the four laws "gospel" around 6-8 times a day, four days a week for 6 weeks. That makes...a mimimum of 144 potential lies ("God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" is law #1)

This past summer I saw five converts, all of which were interested in learning more about their new faith. I probably shared over 100 lies again, but I did see Mexicans profess faith. Shortly after we left in hopes of these nationals fostering a thriving "ministry", they dropped off the radar again.

I think that we made people think about their eternal destination, but I think that other than that the biggest effect was the personal growth of those on the team. I think we might have done some good in wearing down the "crazy spring breakers" view that most Mexicans have of us, but other than that, I have not heard of much fruit at all from Mexico City. The long term missionaries don't mention any of the converts we saw this summer, and there is not a "ministry" in each college that we visited, as we'd hoped for. I'd say we didn't have too much of an impact. We did use up a lot of money, though. Probably around $66,000+ for the whole team. It really sucks to say that I don't think we had much of an impact, but I really don't think we did.

It's sad how many things I now have to put in quotations that I was so involved with before I became reformed: "gospel", "covert", "ministry", etc.

But...I did meet my awesome girlfriend on our last missions trip, she was on our team with me. She's on her way to being reformed, too.

 

[cih1355]

The only mission trips that my church has are the ones where the elders or the Bible study leaders are sent out to train other pastors or church leaders. For example, someone from my church went to Uganda for one year to teach at Westminster Theological College and to help a pastor with a church plant.