Shawn Mathis
Puritan Board Sophomore
Daniel,
Your are welcome. I would publish it to whoever would take it.
Your are welcome. I would publish it to whoever would take it.
Radical home-schooling exegesis of Deuteronomy 6:6-9
- Thread starter Reformed Covenanter
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Hemustincrease
Puritan Board Freshman
In the ten years that I have been home educating my children, I have not once come across (in real life, as opposed to the internet, which tends to make everything appear much bigger than it really is) anyone who believes that deuteronomy chapter 6 means that home education is the only obedient means of bringing up children. (There are many who believe (as I do) that it is the only obedient means of bringing up children in the present time, taking into account personal circumstances and available alternatives.) I have home educated 5 years in the USA and 5 years in the UK and have met and talked with many home educating families both sides of the atlantic.
What do you mean by ‘assistance’? Are you discussing times past or the present situation in the UK?
What do you mean by ‘assistance’? Are you discussing times past or the present situation in the UK?
Shawn Mathis
Puritan Board Sophomore
Jo,
I am glad that you have not met anyone who promotes this view. In my neck of the woods, the state-wide homeschool organization's official introductory book states as much after 10 years of use: After quoting Deut. 6:5-7 the booklet ask:
"Questions: How exactly will we as Christian parents accomplish this? What does this look like for this generation? The only way that we can be constantly teaching, sharing, and discipling our children in the knowledge of and the ways of the Lord as we go about our routine, everyday life is to homeschool!"
But it also give mixed signals that seem to alleviate such a bald-face declaration. In these circles I know (not on the internet), radical homeschooling is promoted more by the atmosphere, innuendos, implications and unstated focus talks, books and conferences (hence my observation of homeschooling and implicit legalism). I would dare say more people are under its influence than realize it.
I am glad that you have not met anyone who promotes this view. In my neck of the woods, the state-wide homeschool organization's official introductory book states as much after 10 years of use: After quoting Deut. 6:5-7 the booklet ask:
"Questions: How exactly will we as Christian parents accomplish this? What does this look like for this generation? The only way that we can be constantly teaching, sharing, and discipling our children in the knowledge of and the ways of the Lord as we go about our routine, everyday life is to homeschool!"
But it also give mixed signals that seem to alleviate such a bald-face declaration. In these circles I know (not on the internet), radical homeschooling is promoted more by the atmosphere, innuendos, implications and unstated focus talks, books and conferences (hence my observation of homeschooling and implicit legalism). I would dare say more people are under its influence than realize it.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Jo, I am not condoning the present state of public education in the UK and would agree that the internet does have a tendency to make us think that movements have more influence than they actually do (and it also tends to give us a sense of our own importance which is out of touch with reality). That being said, I have encountered at least some people who have been influenced by this very teaching. And as Shawn points out the influence of this sort of thing may be more widespread than people realise. I raise this concern not because I am opposed to home-schooling, but partly because of the damage that these teachings will do to the reputations of reasonable people who home-school.
Hemustincrease
Puritan Board Freshman
Shawn
Just read your blog. (I have an excellent book written by Kathryn Joyce called “Child Catchers’. If you haven’t read it, I’d highly recommend it. She unveils much which ought to hugely concern the true church today.)
Nothing really to disagree with in your blog. Legalism is a snare which is all too easy to fall into, whether our ‘thing’ is homeschooling or whatever else. It ought to grieve us (the church) that a journalist who is unsaved, is highlighting the legalistic undercurrent in certain Christian circles. It is also a shame that the far greater number of home educating families who just quietly get on with life, without trying to press everybody else into their mould, simply don’t make the ‘news’. (Not suggesting they should be newsworthy, just pointing out that they do exist.)
Whilst I agree that true Pharisaical legalism needs to be spoken against, we must be sure we do so on the side of Christ and the church and not the world (thinking of Joyce.) I have no difficulty reading the works of unsaved people and standing humbled and even corrected by them where necessary. But I would not wish to stand ‘with’ them (if you know what I mean) against the true church.........even those who have erred into legalism!
A family which has truly become legalistic stands in need of prayer and love etc. It can be a very lonely journey to be a Christian home educating family. There are many within the church who strongly oppose what we are doing (either because of ignorant presumptions or because of strong beliefs that state schooling should be supported) which can make for difficult days. I would say there are as many, if not more, in the church who proclaim ‘their’ way (that of state schooling) as ‘the’ way than there are in home schooling circles. But because this suits the majority of believers, it isn’t jumped on quite like ‘exclusive homeschooling’ is.
There needs to be open discussion from all parties within the local churches, rather than judgements made from afar. Home schoolers may be legalistic, or they may just be naturally drawn towards (or even pushed towards by believers who keep their distance for no other reason than that they have chosen a different educational path) ‘like’ insofar as their educational choices and end up being tarred with the same brush as the loudest member of that group.
Just read your blog. (I have an excellent book written by Kathryn Joyce called “Child Catchers’. If you haven’t read it, I’d highly recommend it. She unveils much which ought to hugely concern the true church today.)
Nothing really to disagree with in your blog. Legalism is a snare which is all too easy to fall into, whether our ‘thing’ is homeschooling or whatever else. It ought to grieve us (the church) that a journalist who is unsaved, is highlighting the legalistic undercurrent in certain Christian circles. It is also a shame that the far greater number of home educating families who just quietly get on with life, without trying to press everybody else into their mould, simply don’t make the ‘news’. (Not suggesting they should be newsworthy, just pointing out that they do exist.)
Whilst I agree that true Pharisaical legalism needs to be spoken against, we must be sure we do so on the side of Christ and the church and not the world (thinking of Joyce.) I have no difficulty reading the works of unsaved people and standing humbled and even corrected by them where necessary. But I would not wish to stand ‘with’ them (if you know what I mean) against the true church.........even those who have erred into legalism!
A family which has truly become legalistic stands in need of prayer and love etc. It can be a very lonely journey to be a Christian home educating family. There are many within the church who strongly oppose what we are doing (either because of ignorant presumptions or because of strong beliefs that state schooling should be supported) which can make for difficult days. I would say there are as many, if not more, in the church who proclaim ‘their’ way (that of state schooling) as ‘the’ way than there are in home schooling circles. But because this suits the majority of believers, it isn’t jumped on quite like ‘exclusive homeschooling’ is.
There needs to be open discussion from all parties within the local churches, rather than judgements made from afar. Home schoolers may be legalistic, or they may just be naturally drawn towards (or even pushed towards by believers who keep their distance for no other reason than that they have chosen a different educational path) ‘like’ insofar as their educational choices and end up being tarred with the same brush as the loudest member of that group.
Shawn Mathis
Puritan Board Sophomore
Jo,
I concur. I also know that the English educational situation is more desperate than the America (from what my British contact says). I have only heard of churches looking down on homeschooling families from experiences in the past not currently (again out West in US).
I concur. I also know that the English educational situation is more desperate than the America (from what my British contact says). I have only heard of churches looking down on homeschooling families from experiences in the past not currently (again out West in US).
Shawn Mathis
Puritan Board Sophomore
Perhaps one way to illustrate the meaning of Deut. 6 (over and against radical homeschooling) is to understand that everyone homeschools: I was homeschooled.
As a 12 year public school teacher (HS English) and a homeschooling dad, I simply cherish time with my kids, abd love teaching the things they matter. In my ministry we have moved often, and our family unity is everything. Will expound more later when I am at a keyboard. ;-)
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Shawn Mathis
Puritan Board Sophomore
Jay, You got my interest there with "Masters thesis on homeschooling"...may I read it? You can PM me.
Convinced
Puritan Board Freshman
I think this is an overgeneralization. I send my kids to public school and I have not had this experience at all. I do not have a problem at all with homeschooling, we have many friends that homeschool and I think it is great. We considered it ourselves.
The US public schools are not for teaching a christian moral code or any one religious doctrine, that is for the parents. I do not advocate any religious teaching in public schools. It is possible for parents to educate their children in public schools and still obey the command in Dt chapter 6. Subjects such as Calculus, Physics, etc. did not exist when Dt was written. Public schools can offer a great education for children while still being brought up in the Lords teachings.
I do understand that public schools differ from state to state as far as how much of a worldview is taught and each parent needs to decide what is right for their own family.
Miss Marple
Puritan Board Junior
"The US public schools are not for teaching a christian moral code or any one religious doctrine,"
Wow, I'd take issue with that. No one is teaching from a neutral standpoint - nobody! There is a world and life view being taught at your your kids' school, and at every school. I doubt that the view being taught in the U.S. public school is biblical, although there may be the occasional teacher or text that is.
That said, can we never send our kids to anyone to learn anything unless it is from a biblical world view as we best ascertain it?
I home school. I live in San Francisco. Enough said, there.
Yet, my sons were active Boy Scouts. They took (and take) music lessons. They played on various sports teams. Even my daughters reffed soccer, and took dance classes and park and rec sports. They worked, more often than not, for non-Christian employers (janitorial, deli, babysitting. . .). And so, they were under the authority and influence of adults who definitely did not, at least usually, have a Christian world view. And they were in the company of a large number of non-Christian peers in those situations, too.
What is the difference between a childhood of schooling K-12 and these more or less part time and casual activities?
1. Parental control. I am not bound to send any child into any of these part time temporary situations, and can pull them for any reason. Sometimes we did pull them. No compulsory attendance laws broken!
2. Time. The amount of time soaking in various anti-biblical situations was much more limited. Then they could come home to much more time devoted to the antithesis.
3. Expectations. Children are constantly pushed to "do well in school," "get A's," "prepare for their future," "keep a high GPA," etc. It is like their decades-long job. Parents are usually very unhappy if children are not bringing home the grades, achievements, and test scores. Yet to achieve them, in current humanist US education, Christian beliefs and principles must be constantly hidden or denied.
4. Snoopy do-gooder teachers who think that spanking is a crime, punishment is creating psychological trouble, abortions are for kids without parental knowledge, a knife in your car is some sort of felony, etc.
So does home schooling solve all these issues? No. I don't have a consistent biblical worldview for a day, probably. My education of my children has been flawed. I am a sinner. Yet at least a biblical world view is the standard, and something we strive for.
You are the head of your household and are the one who must decide what is the best method of education for your family. I don't promote home school, or Christian school, as the cure for all the world's sins. But, don't be deceived into thinking that the education your children are receiving in the public schools is neutral or fact-based only. It is not.
Wow, I'd take issue with that. No one is teaching from a neutral standpoint - nobody! There is a world and life view being taught at your your kids' school, and at every school. I doubt that the view being taught in the U.S. public school is biblical, although there may be the occasional teacher or text that is.
That said, can we never send our kids to anyone to learn anything unless it is from a biblical world view as we best ascertain it?
I home school. I live in San Francisco. Enough said, there.
Yet, my sons were active Boy Scouts. They took (and take) music lessons. They played on various sports teams. Even my daughters reffed soccer, and took dance classes and park and rec sports. They worked, more often than not, for non-Christian employers (janitorial, deli, babysitting. . .). And so, they were under the authority and influence of adults who definitely did not, at least usually, have a Christian world view. And they were in the company of a large number of non-Christian peers in those situations, too.
What is the difference between a childhood of schooling K-12 and these more or less part time and casual activities?
1. Parental control. I am not bound to send any child into any of these part time temporary situations, and can pull them for any reason. Sometimes we did pull them. No compulsory attendance laws broken!
2. Time. The amount of time soaking in various anti-biblical situations was much more limited. Then they could come home to much more time devoted to the antithesis.
3. Expectations. Children are constantly pushed to "do well in school," "get A's," "prepare for their future," "keep a high GPA," etc. It is like their decades-long job. Parents are usually very unhappy if children are not bringing home the grades, achievements, and test scores. Yet to achieve them, in current humanist US education, Christian beliefs and principles must be constantly hidden or denied.
4. Snoopy do-gooder teachers who think that spanking is a crime, punishment is creating psychological trouble, abortions are for kids without parental knowledge, a knife in your car is some sort of felony, etc.
So does home schooling solve all these issues? No. I don't have a consistent biblical worldview for a day, probably. My education of my children has been flawed. I am a sinner. Yet at least a biblical world view is the standard, and something we strive for.
You are the head of your household and are the one who must decide what is the best method of education for your family. I don't promote home school, or Christian school, as the cure for all the world's sins. But, don't be deceived into thinking that the education your children are receiving in the public schools is neutral or fact-based only. It is not.
nicnap
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Jacob,
What is the distinction here? What does the VF crowd advocate? (Are they the primarily vocational training crowd?)
Convinced
Puritan Board Freshman
I think you may have misread my statement. No public school should be teaching any religious doctrine. They will be exposed to a different world view at some point in their lives and I think it may be better if it is when they are still at home so we can deal with it. But to say that the overall goal of our public schools is to indoctrinate them into some kind of pagan world view is a stretch.
I have this same right in our public schools.
I get this comment and I have had the same thoughts, but life today is a series of unbiblical situations the minute you step out the front door.
I strongly disagree with this. This seems like stereotyping rather than reality.
There are teachers that think this way, however they are not the norm in my neck of the woods.
Same as my home.
My wife and I have decided that public schools are where we want our children. Our schools are pretty much fact based and when there is a controversial subject being taught we as parents have always had the option to have our child not attend or do an alternative activity. I am aware that other parts of the country this may not be the case.
It also gives us an opportunity to show them a little bit of what the world believes before they leave home so they can properly handle challenging topics when they are young adults.
My children know that not everything that is taught in school will agree with the Bible and that they do not have to agree with it but need to learn the material anyway. For example, they have learned that scientists think the earth is around 4.6 billion years old, that science does seem to indicate that is true, however the Bible seems to indicate the earth is much younger than that. I see no problem teaching my children what the current scientific theories are. We can have these discussions at home to strengthen their faith, not destroy it.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
While I can agree with your basic concerns about public schooling as it is currently practiced, do you believe that any student who has done well at a public school has done so as a result of compromising their principles? I think that it is hard to sustain such a thesis.
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Hemustincrease
Puritan Board Freshman
It’s a stretch which public schools are happy to make, despite so many Christians living in ignorance of it (or denial) and have been doing for a very long time now.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
From what I gathered from them, homeschooling only, though I am sure there are many who identify with FV yet demur from such a position. RCjr came close to it in some of his Basement Tapes. In any case, almost all would categorically condemn the idea of government-schooling as wrong, and not simply the Western decadence of it. Unfortunately for them, such a view is wildly at odds with Protestant teaching on the subject.
Miss Marple
Puritan Board Junior
"While can agree with your basic concerns about public schooling as it is currently practiced, do you believe that any student who has done well at a public school has done so as a result of compromising their principles? I think that it is hard to sustain such a thesis. "
How do you pass a science test without espousing evolution? How can you pass health without at least wallowing in sinful sexual theory? How can you get an A in English without reading the total smut sometimes assigned?
It's not at all hard to sustain such a thesis! I went to public school in the U.S.
How do you pass a science test without espousing evolution? How can you pass health without at least wallowing in sinful sexual theory? How can you get an A in English without reading the total smut sometimes assigned?
It's not at all hard to sustain such a thesis! I went to public school in the U.S.
Convinced
Puritan Board Freshman
Why is espousing evolutionary theory on a test a bad thing? We need our kids to understand current scientific theories and thoughts. We don't have to believe them, just understand them. Nothing sinful in that. If my kids want to pursue something that includes biology as a career they are going to have to understand evolutionary theory.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Depends largely on school and district. I teach in the public schools and I've never seen these scenarios happen. I've seen some of my gifted students openly challenge teachers on evolution. Granted, what I am saying is anecdotal, but that's largely my point. I can point to horrific disasters in the homeschool community as well (VF anyone?).
I teach English and we read "smut" like Romeo and Juliet (stupid kids, killing, suicide), Scarlet Letter (adultery), Anthem (Libertarian worldview), Count of Monte Cristo (French people), Julius Caesar (Italian people), Mythology (Greek people and their truly smutty gods), etc.
Shawn Mathis
Puritan Board Sophomore
Education is local. Family nurture is local. It is unwise to make to many sweeping allegations about schooling choices without knowing both of these variables.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Miss Marple,
Just to be clear, are you saying then that every Christian pupil who has got good grades at a public school has compromised their faith? What about people who have excelled in Maths? Did they do so by abandoning biblical principles?
I tend to agree with Jacob and Shawn on this issue. While it is credible to think that Christian young people have been harmed by unbiblical teaching in public schools, it is also true that many people have been harmed by unbiblical teaching in homeschools. Indeed, the latter may be even more dangerous in some respects as error has been inculcated in the name of the true religion.
Miss Marple
Puritan Board Junior
No Daniel, I'd not accuse every Christian who got good grades of that. But how do they manage?
My questions were not accusatory (tone does not translate in text), but rather inquisitive: How can I get an A in High School Biology if I don't want to answer questions with evolutionary answers? How can I get an A in English if I don't read Portnoy's Complaint? How can I get an A in Health if I don't want to sit through the homo. sex demo? (Actually given in our public schools utilizing props).
Put a genuinely questioning tone into my questions, rather than an accusatory one. What if I don't want to insult the Puritans during history exams?
There there is the behavioral stuff. We can't wear apparel with American flags on it during Cinco de Mayo, it seems. We have cross dressing days and speak up for homosexual days. We have condoms distributed and pro-fornication messages taught. Teachers using God's name in vain, students being allowed to do the same with no reprisal. Etc. I don't fling this as accusation, but in genuine wonderment. I wouldn't stay in that sort of environment as an adult, if I had any choice in the matter.
Perhaps other states have better situations. I don't know.
My questions were not accusatory (tone does not translate in text), but rather inquisitive: How can I get an A in High School Biology if I don't want to answer questions with evolutionary answers? How can I get an A in English if I don't read Portnoy's Complaint? How can I get an A in Health if I don't want to sit through the homo. sex demo? (Actually given in our public schools utilizing props).
Put a genuinely questioning tone into my questions, rather than an accusatory one. What if I don't want to insult the Puritans during history exams?
There there is the behavioral stuff. We can't wear apparel with American flags on it during Cinco de Mayo, it seems. We have cross dressing days and speak up for homosexual days. We have condoms distributed and pro-fornication messages taught. Teachers using God's name in vain, students being allowed to do the same with no reprisal. Etc. I don't fling this as accusation, but in genuine wonderment. I wouldn't stay in that sort of environment as an adult, if I had any choice in the matter.
Perhaps other states have better situations. I don't know.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I don't doubt these situations exist--I've just never seen them. Further, many public school districts are afraid of Fox News. If a student feels that his/her convictions are threatened, Fox can bring a PR nightmare. See the TV show Daria for examples.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Thank you for clarifying.
Shawn Mathis
Puritan Board Sophomore
Good questions. But cannot be answered without knowing the specifics. I went to public school all my childhood (80s). I never had to compromise to my recollection. Biology taught evolution but there was no test question that stated: "Which is true: creationism or evolution?" And if there was someone could answer "wrongly" as far as the teacher is concerned, but answer everything else and still get an A. Public schools, as near as I can tell, are not too epistemologically self-conscience enough to bother asking such questions. My college courses never did.
Hemustincrease
Puritan Board Freshman
I’m not understanding the need to compare ‘harm done’ in public school with ‘harm done’ in home school?
How we educate our children (as believers) isn’t founded upon pragmatic conclusions. It should be based on the Word of God and parental obedience to that Word.
I don’t sit my children under those who can do no other than to instruct them in humanistic deception which utterly opposes the truth as laid out in Scripture, for the very simple reason that God was not and is not the Author of anything which could ever be counted as ‘neutral’ or irreligious. God has commanded us to bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. That is impossible to do, when one’s children are sitting under humanist instruction day in and day out. Education is never neutral. The humanists understand that very well, which is why they have always pushed to get their hands on our children as young as possible, with the sole aim of shaping their minds in accordance with their agenda. Sadly, the majority of Christian parents continue to claim that education is neutral and so willingly hand their children over to those who know otherwise.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I can think of two major home school advocates who were sexually preying upon young women.
While few would disagree with that, the historic Reformed faith has rejected any such "regulative principle of life."
That's rather extreme and really depends on where you are. If you were in the San Francisco gay community, you would have a strong point.
And that assumes every public school educator is a card-carrying ACLU member who can't wait to teach the students about gay s3x. I hope that isn't true of me.
That may be true, but I've noticed that Van Tillians--if you are one--have a hard time moving from how their theory necessarily connects to the specifics of a discipline. Does our knowledge of how a parabola functions *change* simply because we say "Jesus' Parabola" (RCjr came very close to saying that in a basement tape).
This is more of a string of assertions than an actual argument, so I will hold up here.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Are you advocating a regulative principle of education here? As far as I am aware, nobody on this has said it is fine to disobey the word of God.
If you do not do that then you will be more prone to missing homeschooling blind-spots. What I have often found is that homeschoolers are very quick to point out the faults of public schools, but get ultra-defensive once you point out error in homeschooling circles. Besides, what is more dangerous, a secularist public school or a Roman Catholic homeschool? Probably the latter, because it teaches anti-christianity in the name of Christianity.
What is religious about 2 + 2 = 4. Is a non-Christian teaching someone that 2 + 2 = 4 any better or worse than a Christian teaching someone the same thing? This is not to say that there is no such thing as Christian education, but Christian education (at least as I understand it) primarily meant that children were to be taught the scriptures and the Shorter Catechism as part of their schooling; I never recall anyone writing a book on "Christian Maths" or "Christian woodwork" prior to the late 20th century.
Hemustincrease
Puritan Board Freshman
What reason do you have for bringing up the sins of others in this discussion? What bearing does that have on the subject at hand?
Reformed faith must require obedience to the Word of God. How we educate our children needs to be in line with Scripture just as every other part of our life needs to be. I’m not suggesting a regulative principle of life. I’m simply suggesting we obey God in this area of life.
State schools in the USA and the UK follow a ‘national curriculum’. Teachers are all trained and certified by state boards of education to follow that curriculum. I’m not seeing anything extreme in what I said. It is simply a fact of today.
Whatever the personal faith of a teacher might be, when they are teaching in a state school, they are teaching in accordance with the national curriculum, which is at it’s core, humanist.
Education is not neutral. Do we believe that He created all things (including the perfection found in Math, physics, biology etc) or don’t we? If we do, then how can we teach any of those things without giving the glory to God? Humanist instruction exalts man in all these (and every other) disciplines and completely ignores the Creator.
It is a point of fact which I’m yet to find anybody willing or able to deny.
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