Rebellious teenager

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My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!

One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.

Over the course of the last 9 months or so he went from a teen who struggled mightily with some temptations but still wanted to pursue involvement with church and faith (we were also in between churches last year so that was hard on him)… to a hard hearted, identifying with the rainbow alphabet, self-centered, bitter, and seemingly unreachable teen who wants nothing to do with God or family. And he considers us his prison guards because we will not let him go and hang out with those kids anymore, literally pacing around like a caged animal.

At this age (now 15), when we wanted to start letting go more as he grew into adulthood, we are having to take away freedom after freedom. But this discipline is not affecting his heart and seems to only harden him more.

We are at a loss. I am crying out to God for my son.
 
My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!

One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.

Over the course of the last 9 months or so he went from a teen who struggled mightily with some temptations but still wanted to pursue involvement with church and faith (we were also in between churches last year so that was hard on him)… to a hard hearted, identifying with the rainbow alphabet, self-centered, bitter, and seemingly unreachable teen who wants nothing to do with God or family. And he considers us his prison guards because we will not let him go and hang out with those kids anymore, literally pacing around like a caged animal.

At this age (now 15), when we wanted to start letting go more as he grew into adulthood, we are having to take away freedom after freedom. But this discipline is not affecting his heart and seems to only harden him more.

We are at a loss. I am crying out to God for my son.
I feel your pain, dear sister. I have been in your shoes. For now I’ll just say that you seem to be doing what the Lord would have you do, no matter how heart-breaking this present turn-out is for you. I have seen young men and women turned around! Take heart! Yes, labor in prayer for him and for your whole family. Ask the Lord to search all hearts, and show you and your husband, as well as your children, any hidden fault.
 
I was once such a rebellious teenager, I thought I would go back to Jesus next time when I am older. I felt that I was obliged to taste the world. Jesus was a barrier to such an obligation. Such foolish thoughts. God saved me in college. Never stop pleading for mercy. God used the prayers of my family to bring me back as the prodigal.
 
I know it's not easy to hear, but stay the course and trust God and how he tells us to raise our children.

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
Proverbs 23:13‭-‬14 ESV

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.
Proverbs 22:15 ESV

Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Proverbs 13:24 ESV
 
Thank you for your prayers. Anyone who has BTDT, either as a teen or parent, please share anything by way of advice.
 
I know it's not easy to hear, but stay the course and trust God and how he tells us to raise our children.

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
Proverbs 23:13‭-‬14 ESV

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.
Proverbs 22:15 ESV

Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Proverbs 13:24 ESV
Do you believe physical discipline is appropriate for a teenager..?
 
I was once such a rebellious teenager, I thought I would go back to Jesus next time when I am older. I felt that I was obliged to taste the world. Jesus was a barrier to such an obligation. Such foolish thoughts. God saved me in college. Never stop pleading for mercy. God used the prayers of my family to bring me back as the prodigal.
Looking back, is there anything in particular that you wish your parents had done, or that you are glad your parents had done?
 
Do you believe physical discipline is appropriate for a teenager..?
In your case it will probably only harden your son’s heart more. I’m in almost the same exact situation. Beyond praying fervently being patient and gracious and picking our battles has been the only thing that has had any affect.
 
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Thank you for your prayers. Anyone who has BTDT, either as a teen or parent, please share anything by way of advice.
Looking back, a very huge hole in our lives was lack of discipling from the church, both for us as parents and for my son. I noticed you're in a holding pattern at a church with which I guess you're not theologically aligned; do you have a minister and elders there who are able and willing to counsel y'all and your son?
 
Do you believe physical discipline is appropriate for a teenager..?
It might be for a boy. The other way to look at the "rod" is disciple in general. Basically, make sure there is discipline and sometimes it must be severe. Don't try to win his friendship or forget you are the parent (I am not saying you are doing this).

However, even though I doubt in my sin sometimes, I find in the end, God's way is always the right way. So, if these passages mean physical punishment, then I have no reason to doubt God's wisdom.
 
In your case it will probably only it hardens your son’s heart more. I’m in almost the same exact situation. Beyond praying fervently being patient and gracious and picking our battles has been the only thing that has had any affect.
Where in the Bible do you get this from? I am being serious, perhaps I have missed a verse that would lead someone to the conclusion you have, about picking certain battles and not applying the rod. Otherwise, I say we just obey God and not try to bring in our own "wisdom".
 
Where in the Bible do you get this from? I am being serious, perhaps I have missed a verse that would lead someone to the conclusion you have, about picking certain battles and not applying the rod. Otherwise, I say we just obey God and not try to bring in our own "wisdom".
The verse about sparing the rod doesn’t always mean physical punishment at all times and every instance there is disobedience. We are reformed and not Biblicists. Sometimes correction can be done in other ways. I also don’t see God dishing out punishment every time his children were disobedient. They never would have even made it to the promise land God is long suffering, and sometimes his kindness is meant to lead to repentance. Jesus also didn’t scold Peter after Peter denied him. He gave Peter time to think about his actions and then in a loving way corrected him. Disciplining a teenager takes patience and wisdom not just physically punishing them every time they disobey. Otherwise you’ll never show them the grace and love that is in Christ Jesus
 
Do you believe physical discipline is appropriate for a teenager..?
Thats what the hebrew word "na'ar" means: A youth. The rod is for his back. Also see Proverbs 10:13; 19:29; 26:3. You might have applied it way too early. Our view (me and my wife) is that there is no such thing as "spanking" in Proverbs if we are to take the text for what it says. It works best for the teenage year and with enough force to cause "blueness of a wound" when applied to the back (Proverbs 20:30).

I dont think though that will solve the problem however. You could take more freedoms away but it might only harden his heart. You could yield some freedoms to him that he will just have to experience the consequences of his actions. I think of the prodigal son where the father gave him what he wanted but it was a sore lesson to him (Luke 15:11-32). Yet he came back later!
 
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Thats what the hebrew word "na'ar" means: A youth. The rod is for his back. Also see Proverbs 10:13; 19:29; 26:3. You might have applied it way too early. Our view (me and my wife) is that there is no such thing as "spanking" in Proverbs if we are to take the text for what it says. It works best for the teenage year and with enough force to cause "blueness of a wound" when applied to the back (Proverbs 20:30).

I dont think though that will solve the problem however. You could take more freedoms away but it might only harden his heart. You could yield some freedoms to him that he will just have to experience the consequences of his actions. I think of the prodigal son where the father gave him what he wanted but it was a sore lesson to him (Luke 15:11-32). Yet he came back later!

I know sometimes when I experience turbulance with my 12yo son, after removal
of privelages he gets very embittered and would ‘double down’ to the point I have just said basically have it your way and have your privelages, but do not expect any further discipleship, leading, advice from me. Strangely enough it is only when it has gotten to that point do I see any signs of remorse or repentance.
Almost like me ‘not caring’ is far worse than me caring enough to engage in heated debate and a verbal sparring.

I think, however, physically disciplining a teenager could run the risk of him turning on you or in a moment of rage reporting you to the authorities and then social service entanglements/police involvement.
 
Thats what the hebrew word "na'ar" means: A youth.
Ummm....no.

It can mean a youth or even a young man old enough to act as a soldier (2 Sam. 2:14). But it can also mean a newborn baby (1 Sam. 4:21) or an infant (Exod. 2:6). So you would have to establish on other grounds whether the proverb has in view military discipline or training young children, or something in between. Proverbs always require wisdom to apply properly (Prov. 26:9).
 
Ummm....no.

It can mean a youth or even a young man old enough to act as a soldier (2 Sam. 2:14). But it can also mean a newborn baby (1 Sam. 4:21) or an infant (Exod. 2:6). So you would have to establish on other grounds whether the proverb has in view military discipline or training young children, or something in between. Proverbs always require wisdom to apply properly (Prov. 26:9).
Ummm...yes.

You cant "spank" a three month old Moses or new born Samuel, especially when Eli refuses to discipline his own adult children who are priests of the Lord and also called "na'ar", one of them being married and with child (1 Sam 4:19). You did not account for the other 235 times na'ar is used in the old testament and clearly refers to a youth or young man. The wisdom of proverbs is to use enough force to break the blood vessels beneath the skin, something that makes no sense in a infant or toddler than cannot reason abstractly. Its make perfect sense in a rebellious youth with an adult mind and body. The target audience of Proverbs are speaking to young men (Prov 1:4). Not two year olds and under.
 
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The verse about sparing the rod doesn’t always mean physical punishment at all times and every instance there is disobedience. We are reformed and not Biblicists. Sometimes correction can be done in other ways. I also don’t see God dishing out punishment every time his children were disobedient. They never would have even made it to the promise land God is long suffering, and sometimes his kindness is meant to lead to repentance. Jesus also didn’t scold Peter after Peter denied him. He gave Peter time to think about his actions and then in a loving way corrected him. Disciplining a teenager takes patience and wisdom not just physically punishing them every time they disobey. Otherwise you’ll never show them the grace and love that is in Christ Jesus
The example of Peter and Jesus is not one that would reflect the context in proverbs as that is parents and child. Also, God did disciple Israel quite severely at times, often times with death. I agree it may not always be physical, but some type of disciple is required. If you allow a child to get away with something they will only get emboldened and commit worse acts in the future.
 
Ummm...yes.

You cant "spank" a three month old Moses or new born Samuel, especially when Eli refuses to discipline his own adult children who are priests of the Lord and also called "na'ar", one of them being married and with child (1 Sam 4:19). You did not account for the other 235 times na'ar is used in the old testament and clearly refers to a youth or young man. The wisdom of proverbs is to use enough force to break the blood vessels beneath the skin, something that makes no sense in a infant or toddler than cannot reason abstractly. Its make perfect sense in a rebellious youth with an adult mind and body. The target audience of Proverbs are speaking to young men (Prov 1:4). Not two year olds and under.
So at what age did you start using corporal punishment?
 
The example of Peter and Jesus is not one that would reflect the context in proverbs as that is parents and child. Also, God did disciple Israel quite severely at times, often times with death. I agree it may not always be physical, but some type of disciple is required. If you allow a child to get away with something they will only get emboldened and commit worse acts in the future.
The Peter/Jesus example does come into play because it’s an example on how we ought to act/ respond at times that can certainly be applied to raising children and other contexts. Not all Proverbs are absolutes unless your willing to say that every child raised in a Christian home will not depart from the faith. They are principles that should be used with wisdom. Yes God did deal with Israel with some grave consequences but not each and every time. He showed much mercy and Grace many many times. It takes wisdom and understanding your child to know when to give them grace or resist their proud behavior.
 
The Peter/Jesus example does come into play because it’s an example on how we ought to act/ respond at times that can certainly be applied to raising children and other contexts. Not all Proverbs are absolutes unless your willing to say that every child raised in a Christian home will not depart from the faith. They are principles that should be used with wisdom. Yes God did deal with Israel with some grave consequences but not each and every time. He showed much mercy and Grace many many times. It takes wisdom and understanding your child to know when to give them grace or resist their proud behavior.
Never saying it's always absolutes, but the commands are there for a reason and to be obeyed. Also, it seems to me these days, parents are far too charitable when it comes to disciple. Many Christian parents don't disciple much at all.

I would ask as well since you said you are in a similar situation, how is your approach currently working?
 
My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!

One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.

Over the course of the last 9 months or so he went from a teen who struggled mightily with some temptations but still wanted to pursue involvement with church and faith (we were also in between churches last year so that was hard on him)… to a hard hearted, identifying with the rainbow alphabet, self-centered, bitter, and seemingly unreachable teen who wants nothing to do with God or family. And he considers us his prison guards because we will not let him go and hang out with those kids anymore, literally pacing around like a caged animal.

At this age (now 15), when we wanted to start letting go more as he grew into adulthood, we are having to take away freedom after freedom. But this discipline is not affecting his heart and seems to only harden him more.

We are at a loss. I am crying out to God for my son.
While I have little wisdom to share from a parent's perspective, I hope I can share something encouraging. When I was around 14, I went down a very similar path. It began with feeling like I didn't fit in at our church and, being unregenerate, I began seeking a different worldview altogether, one that was antithetical to Christianity. That's a fancy way to say that I became a rebel. By the time I was 16, I had found ways to avoid my parents almost all the time. I got a job, made friends who did drugs, and spent most of my money on drugs. By the time I was 17, I was a fully indoctrinated liberal, pothead, and general lawbreaker.

I still don't know what was going on in my parents' heads through all of this, except that I made them witness things that I can never fully apologize for (I do hope you never have to pick your son up after being arrested for a DUI). But when I was 17, they told me that I could either come to church every Lord's Day or leave the house. So I did. For a while, I showed up and firmly refused to talk to anyone. I remember sitting in the fellowship hall during the service, reading Wittgenstein and thinking about how deranged everyone there was. I think this went on for about six months until I started to at least talk to people.

I have to skip over details of the immense patience and love that God's people showed me during the next year or so, before and after I was called. But there was a particular day when I sat in on a sermon and got that feeling of being spoken to directly. I was indignant, because I literally thought I was being spoken about in the pulpit. That anger soon passed into sorrow, and then into curiosity of how I could feel so sorrowful over sin, which I denied the reality of. I still didn't consider becoming a Christian, but soon after, I started developing a relationship with the pastor and his wife, even spending days and nights over their house. One day, the pastor's wife said something like, "If you're going to criticize Christianity, you should at least read the Bible." It wasn't far into reading the Gospel of Mark that I was overwhelmed with sorrow and adoration for Christ, and I began to pray. I became a communicant member of the church a few months after my 18th birthday.

I will say that my parents were overly lenient on me as I was descending into that madness. They were busy with the family business and had a hard enough time communicating with each other, I think. I'm not sure if there was a moment of realization for them about how hardened I had become, but if there was, it was at least a couple years after I had started down that path. Either way, it would have been extremely difficult for them to discipline me once I was 15 or 16. Like you mention, whenever they tried to discipline me, it only hardened me further. edit: I'm not saying you should let him run wild. It's probably best to keep him away from those people despite his attitude about it.

I know they prayed for me fervently and constantly, and so did the church. So your son will be in my prayers, and I will share this with my parents so they can pray as well. If you'd like to talk to my mother or father, I'd be happy to put you in contact with them. I know they learned a lot from dealing with me as a teenager.
 
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This is a discussion board, but this is also a thread about a tough situation. If you find an invincible need to argue about other people's problems, start a new thread.
[/Moderating]
 
My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!

One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.

Over the course of the last 9 months or so he went from a teen who struggled mightily with some temptations but still wanted to pursue involvement with church and faith (we were also in between churches last year so that was hard on him)… to a hard hearted, identifying with the rainbow alphabet, self-centered, bitter, and seemingly unreachable teen who wants nothing to do with God or family. And he considers us his prison guards because we will not let him go and hang out with those kids anymore, literally pacing around like a caged animal.

At this age (now 15), when we wanted to start letting go more as he grew into adulthood, we are having to take away freedom after freedom. But this discipline is not affecting his heart and seems to only harden him more.

We are at a loss. I am crying out to God for my son.
Our oldest is almost 11. She's exhibited some strong willed, rebellious behavior. My wife and I have had numerous conversations about her and with her. We've engaged outside counsel as well. One thing we try to never forget is there is not usually one thing. :) There isn't a silver bullet-that is one thing to say, to do, to take away or any other magic approach. Sometimes the only option is to press on. The Lord provides many means of grace in our lives. He sustains us by Word and Sacrament of course. He also sustains us by the prayers and encouragement of others.
 
Never saying it's always absolutes, but the commands are there for a reason and to be obeyed. Also, it seems to me these days, parents are far too charitable when it comes to disciple. Many Christian parents don't disciple much at all.

I would ask as well since you said you are in a similar situation, how is your approach currently working?
I’ve never said we don’t discipline him but you can’t micro manage a teen - that only creates an embittered person. As far as the situation It’s in one sense better - Less outburst and more real conversations. But he isn’t a believer. His Salvation is in the Lords hands so he will see fit or not to open his eyes and turn him to God.
 
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