Reconcile these for me.
It shouldn't be hard but I am a little confused. Just want to see if what I am thinking is correct.
It shouldn't be hard but I am a little confused. Just want to see if what I am thinking is correct.
Reconcile these for me
- Thread starter PuritanCovenanter
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Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
Hi Puritan, there are more knowledgeable people than me, but it's almost 2 am, so your stuck with me until day break. Just a couple of thoughts.
On the Rom 5:13, even though sin was not imputed, death still reigned because of Adam's sin. And the people were still under the curse. that's the thought going on in the following verses. And yes, sin was not imputed because it wasn't spelled out in the law. Paul picks up that thought when he talks about coveting and the laws effect on him. But in these passages he's comparing Jesus to Adam. Law here equals Mosaic law.
on the Rom 2:12, the first part, 'sinned without law shall also perish without law', even the death of Adam still applies. ie, implying that they haven't heard law (which is refuted in vs 15). The second part those that know the law will be judged by it. Of course this whole passage is kind of a leading question answered in vs 16. 'In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according the my gospel' It's a universal answer to legalism, answering the Innocent native question (so to speak as there is no such thing), and to the other extreme to those that know the law and think they fulfill it. ANSWER is only Jesus Christ and what he did for us. Law here is both Mosaic law and Natural law.
Anyway, more knowledgeable people than me will come along and give you a better answer, I just opened my trusty KJV and typed out a few things that struck me, because at first glance, I thought they are talking about different times, ie first passage talks about the administration period between Adam and Moses, and second passage is in the new covenant. Which then lead to my waxing eloquent above.
My 2 cents - Grymir
On the Rom 5:13, even though sin was not imputed, death still reigned because of Adam's sin. And the people were still under the curse. that's the thought going on in the following verses. And yes, sin was not imputed because it wasn't spelled out in the law. Paul picks up that thought when he talks about coveting and the laws effect on him. But in these passages he's comparing Jesus to Adam. Law here equals Mosaic law.
on the Rom 2:12, the first part, 'sinned without law shall also perish without law', even the death of Adam still applies. ie, implying that they haven't heard law (which is refuted in vs 15). The second part those that know the law will be judged by it. Of course this whole passage is kind of a leading question answered in vs 16. 'In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according the my gospel' It's a universal answer to legalism, answering the Innocent native question (so to speak as there is no such thing), and to the other extreme to those that know the law and think they fulfill it. ANSWER is only Jesus Christ and what he did for us. Law here is both Mosaic law and Natural law.
Anyway, more knowledgeable people than me will come along and give you a better answer, I just opened my trusty KJV and typed out a few things that struck me, because at first glance, I thought they are talking about different times, ie first passage talks about the administration period between Adam and Moses, and second passage is in the new covenant. Which then lead to my waxing eloquent above.
My 2 cents - Grymir
5:12 Dealing with Original Sin
sin came into the world through one man
death came into the world through that act
death spread to all men because all sinned
5:13
without question sin was in the world before the law [of Moses] was given
[related fact] sin is not counted where there is no law
5:14
death reigned from Adam to Moses
[conclusion, sin IS being counted]
[therefore, some law must be at work even before Moses]
death even reigned over {children/infants} who hadn't sinned remotely "like" Adam.
[conclusion: imputation of Adam's guilt, even apart from "actual" transgressions]
2:12 Not dealing with Original Sin
those who are "without the law" [of Moses] (Gentiles) die according to vv14-15, having violations of their "own" law which in many places are coincidental with God's moral standard. So, if he believes it's wrong to murder, but he does it anyway, since this is coincidental with God's moral standard, he is found a lawbreaker, his "conscience accusing him." At judgment day he is without excuse.
Those who possess the revealed Standard (Jews) have a supplemental code which is ideal. When they violate this Standard, everyone KNOWS they are guilty before God.
sin came into the world through one man
death came into the world through that act
death spread to all men because all sinned
5:13
without question sin was in the world before the law [of Moses] was given
[related fact] sin is not counted where there is no law
5:14
death reigned from Adam to Moses
[conclusion, sin IS being counted]
[therefore, some law must be at work even before Moses]
death even reigned over {children/infants} who hadn't sinned remotely "like" Adam.
[conclusion: imputation of Adam's guilt, even apart from "actual" transgressions]
2:12 Not dealing with Original Sin
those who are "without the law" [of Moses] (Gentiles) die according to vv14-15, having violations of their "own" law which in many places are coincidental with God's moral standard. So, if he believes it's wrong to murder, but he does it anyway, since this is coincidental with God's moral standard, he is found a lawbreaker, his "conscience accusing him." At judgment day he is without excuse.
Those who possess the revealed Standard (Jews) have a supplemental code which is ideal. When they violate this Standard, everyone KNOWS they are guilty before God.
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