Redeemer NYC: Officer Nominations --> Deaconesses!!!

[Scott1]

Understand what is NOT happening in the case of "commissioning" Sunday school workers that IS happening under the leadership of the esteemed Pastor from New York City:

1) not being elected by the congregation
2) not being examined for doctrine and asked to declare differences
3) vows are not taken by the congregation to submit to their authority
4) any vows taken are not the officer vows (e.g. BCO 24-6)
5) not taking a title of governing office
6) not being ordained
7) not being installed in a parallel ceremony to that of officers
8) a sermon charge is not directed at them
9) a sermon charge is not directed at the congregation in receiving them

Mason,
ordination and installation of governing officers of the church, in the PCA, is an ordinance of worship. It is a holy rite of oath, that reflects our doctrinal beliefs as Presbyterians, and it is specified by our Book of Church Order.

You should know that.

There is not a valid comparison with "commissioning" a Sunday School worker. Not even close.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

As you see above, I don't agree with everything Ligon does...

Noticed a few things from the video: YouTube - Redeemer NYC Deaconess Ordination/Installation

Male and female deacons are all being installed together (0:03); Deb, elected to be a female deacon is being used as the exemplar to represent the other 17 being installed later that morning; The Pastor states: "Deb is assuming the Diaconal Role this morning." (0:13); Nominated (0:20) by members of Redeemer as a Candidate just as the other elders and deacons; Extensive Training Process (0:28); Interviewed by other officers of the Church (0:35); Elected by vote of congregation (0:41); Deaconess for Deb is an extraordinary calling (1:17); She is charged (1:34); Six Ordination Questions are asked to the woman (4:26); The Pastor clearly uses the word ordination in regard to what is going on (5:09); The members of Redeemer promise and covenant to yield obedience to her. (6:02).

As I've stated earlier, the same vows are given to ordained deacons and unordained deaconesses for simplicity's sake. Remember, Redeemer has 5 different worship services throughout the day - such installation/ordination takes place at each service. To maintain consistency they simply perform the same vows at each one, the same way Tim Keller preaches the same sermon at each service. The church is clear that they do not ordain their female deacons.

Understand what is NOT happening in the case of "commissioning" Sunday school workers that IS happening under the leadership of the esteemed Pastor from New York City:

1) not being elected by the congregation
2) not being examined for doctrine and asked to declare differences
3) vows are not taken by the congregation to submit to their authority
4) any vows taken are not the officer vows (e.g. BCO 24-6)
5) not taking a title of governing office
6) not being ordained
7) not being installed in a parallel ceremony to that of officers
8) a sermon charge is not directed at them
9) a sermon charge is not directed at the congregation in receiving them

Mason,
ordination and installation of governing officers of the church, in the PCA, is an ordinance of worship. It is a holy rite of oath, that reflects our doctrinal beliefs as Presbyterians, and it is specified by our Book of Church Order.

You should know that.

There is not a valid comparison with "commissioning" a Sunday School worker. Not even close.

Scott, I don't why you can understand that Redeemer does not ordain its deaconesses. They are officially and clearly commissioned but not ordained to an office. Therefore none of what you say is really germane to this discussion.

So the deaconesses undergo an extensive interview and selection process...since when is that a bad thing?

I'll say it for the millionth time: Redeemer does not ordain its deaconesses. They commission them, but do not ordain them. This is not a violation of Scripture or the BCO. No one has demonstrated - in this discussion or anywhere else - where commissioning deaconesses violates the BCO. If you are against commissioning in general, then there are about a thousand PCA churches that are just as guilty as Redeemer.

 

[TimV]

Mason, do you feel you have to obey Deb?

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Mason, do you feel you have to obey Deb?

Of course not...why should I?

 

[William Price]

Would this deaconness have leadership authority over men within the church?

 

[Brian Withnell]

What's really sad is what's behind the issue of "deaconess." It's the question, "Did God really say _________?" Are we really not suppose to eat from that tree? Are deacons really suppose to be the husband of one wife?

I disagree. I think there is a case to be made for women deaconesses. I personally am not buying it, but we can't deny that it can be made. For example, the RPCNA is a very conservative, Reformed, godly denomination, and they have ORDAINED women deaconesses. I don't see their position as being "Did God really say _________?" Though I am sure that they could indeed be wrong about things. (I think they are wrong about hymns being false worship, for instance.)

What I think is wrong about Redeemer is their "Did the BCO really say _________?"

I'm going to agree with my wife on this one on two counts. First, even if it is just what the denomination has said, it can still be "Did God really say that we are to keep our vows?"

The second point I'd like to make is that it is just plain wrong for the lies to be coming out about this. Why do I say lies? Because what is said in political circles seems very different than what is said to the congregation (the email).

If they feel that strongly about it, they should leave the PCA and either join a denomination that is agreeable to their view, or return to what they vowed, and teach it. It is not honorable for someone to subvert the government from within when they have vowed to uphold it.

 

[TimV]

Originally Posted by TimV
Mason, do you feel you have to obey Deb?

Of course not...why should I?

Because the guy who carried out the ordination asked the congregation whether or not they would obey her, and everyone said yes.

I'd like to get some names, and write an open letter to Redeemer's session.

 

[Brian Withnell]

Would this deaconness have leadership authority over men within the church?

It would seem that "Jenny" (chairmen of the deaconate) would have leadership authority over the deacons.

 

[Zenas]

Originally Posted by TimV
Mason, do you feel you have to obey Deb?

Of course not...why should I?

Because the guy who carried out the ordination asked the congregation whether or not they would obey her, and everyone said yes.

I'd like to get some names, and write an open letter to Redeemer's session.

I'd like to mail you the pen and paper.

 

[William Price]

Would this deaconness have leadership authority over men within the church?

It would seem that "Jenny" (chairmen of the deaconate) would have leadership authority over the deacons.

I read their web page. I am sorry, but I find their deaconess unscriptural according to 1Timothy 2:12. This is a quote of their duties as assigned under their own pages:

* Practically assist and encourage Redeemer members and regular attendees in challenging circumstances
* Pray, answer questions and give counsel after the Redeemer services
* Conduct church membership interviews
* Various other administrative and operational tasks and roles

Sorry, but I find the second and third parts of this, as done in the administrative fashion completely unscriptural. In order to perform these tasks, they must exercise authority. This in and of itself proves unscriptural.

 

[Brian Withnell]

I read their web page. I am sorry, but I find their deaconess unscriptural according to 1Timothy 2:12.

Don't be sorry. I certainly am not sorry that I find the whole thing disgusting and a blight on the Church of our Savior and Lord. I find it even more heinous that there seems to be a covert activity to change the doctrinal standards through degrees. I came to reformed faith through a RPCES church (which joined with the PCA many years ago). I helped with planting three PCA churches. There is a great deal of distress in seeing this kind of thing happening in the PCA. I am not sorry that I find this unscriptural, I am sorry it was not quickly rooted out long ago!

 

[NaphtaliPress]

There has been a clarification from Tim Keller of the video first posted above. See the link below at Reformedmusings.
Tim Keller’s Response to the YouTube Video Reformed Musings