Reformed Baptists and Seminary (or lack thereof).

[ArminianOnceWas]

I'll take a country bumpkin over a theological liberal any day.

Please understand that no one is trying to make this into a choice of either an educated liberal vs an uneducated conservative. This is extreme and something that you seem to be projecting into the conversation.

I often see those with little to no education push back very hard against "theological cemeteries," and I have known some ministers who feel vocational inadequacy because of the lack of formal training and sometimes develop this resistance to education in an effort to disguise their own inadequate feelings. I don't know anyone here in a capacity to even project that upon any members of PB and so I am not making an individual accusation, but merely sharing a general observation. However, I mention this as a caution, and in a similar way, I urge caution to the seminary educated who feel as elitist.

I don't see the affirmation of good education as something that comes at the expense of objectifying those who are poorly educated, any more than I would discourage a church to enjoy an air conditioner in worship because for the vast majority of Christian history there were no air-conditioned worship services.

So I will agree that God has used and will use those with poor education for His work, however, I will not waver in the affirmation that ministers of the gospel should receive the best training available. This is a high calling to be taken very seriously.

 

[Pergamum]

Please understand that no one is trying to make this into a choice of either an educated liberal vs an uneducated conservative. This is extreme and something that you seem to be projecting into the conversation.

I often see those with little to no education push back very hard against "theological cemeteries," and I have known some ministers who feel vocational inadequacy because of the lack of formal training and sometimes develop this resistance to education in an effort to disguise their own inadequate feelings. I don't know anyone here in a capacity to even project that upon any members of PB and so I am not making an individual accusation, but merely sharing a general observation. However, I mention this as a caution, and in a similar way, I urge caution to the seminary educated who feel as elitist.

I don't see the affirmation of good education as something that comes at the expense of objectifying those who are poorly educated, any more than I would discourage a church to enjoy an air conditioner in worship because for the vast majority of Christian history there were no air-conditioned worship services.

So I will agree that God has used and will use those with poor education for His work, however, I will not waiver in the affirmation that ministers of the gospel should receive the best training available. This is a high calling to be taken very seriously.

I am almost done with an accredited doctorate. I just cannot finish my dissertation right now because I've recently had a brain inflammation from parasites. I could hardly even read anything 2 months ago due to "swimmy" thoughts and brain fog.

There is a tendency to look down upon the lesser-educated men who are often doing the majority of the ministry work in most parts of the world. The illiterate tribal evangelists I know will enter the kingdom before most of the Ph.D.s of this world.

Many US pastors go overseas and try to teach foreign pastors who are often more mature pastors than they are, yet only lack formal education. Some of these poor foreign men ought to come and teach US pastors...but, they have no money to do so.

I agree with your note of caution on the seminary-educated who may feel elitist.

----------

Getting back to the OP:

I believe the best method of finding a solid Reformed Baptist Church is not in eliminating churches from the list if their pastors were not formally trained.

The better method would be to examine the doctrine and character of each church. Some RB churches are theologically sound in preaching, but poor in application. Some pastors are not formally trained, but some of the best preachers I've ever heard.

I do believe there may be a note of arrogance if a man flat-out states that he doesn't think he has anything to learn from a man who is not formally-trained and is unwilling to sit underneath their teaching. Automatically crossing these men off the list is unwarranted.

 

[ArminianOnceWas]

The illiterate tribal evangelists I know will enter the kingdom before most of the Ph.D.s of this world.

I do believe there may be a note of arrogance if a man flat-out states that he doesn't think he has anything to learn from a man who is not formally-trained and is unwilling to sit underneath their teaching. Automatically crossing these men off the list is unwarranted.

Again, I think you are really working on extremes here. No one has suggested crossing anyone off or that there is nothing to learn. Can't we distinguish the proper boundary here? Also, for someone who was sensitive and identified the potential pride of another brother in this thread, you are seeming to come across somewhat elitist yourself and potentially prideful in standing your ground.

There is obviously emotional arousal and defensiveness playing a role here in this thread and the conversation is going in circles. This is far beyond the scope of the original post. Having said that, I am going to do my part to cease this circular conversation of pride and extremes that perhaps each of us have engaged in here, and I am walking away believing that repentance here is the most acceptable response.

Much success on the completion of your academics and in all sincerity, I am adding the situation you referenced regarding your brain to my prayer list for the day. I'll return in a few days to read any response you have so as to not have the last word then exit, but I don't plan on giving anymore effort to this thread.

 

[Pergamum]

Again, I think you are really working on extremes here. No one has suggested crossing anyone off or that there is nothing to learn. Can't we distinguish the proper boundary here? Also, for someone who was sensitive and identified the potential pride of another brother in this thread, you are seeming to come across somewhat elitist yourself and potentially prideful in standing your ground.

There is obviously emotional arousal and defensiveness playing a role here in this thread and the conversation is going in circles. This is far beyond the scope of the original post. Having said that, I am going to do my part to cease this circular conversation of pride and extremes that perhaps each of us have engaged in here, and I am walking away believing that repentance here is the most acceptable response.

Much success on the completion of your academics and in all sincerity, I am adding the situation you referenced regarding your brain to my prayer list for the day. I'll return in a few days to read any response you have so as to not have the last word then exit, but I don't plan on giving anymore effort to this thread.

Remember, one of the early comments in this thread was:

"I would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of a man who at least didn't have the equivalent of a seminary level education."

 

[Pergamum]

Thanks for praying for my brain.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

As Pastor Keister pointed out earlier, God wants his ministers trained. The “pattern of sound words” was passed from Paul to Timothy and he was to teach others in the same way. An untaught or poorly taught clergy has largely (not totally) been responsible for Pentecostalism in the West, and that plus mixing tribal superstition with Christianity in other parts of the world. Generally the worship of God is greatly degraded under an untaught clergy. Skill is required for rightly interpreting much of Scripture and God has designed it that way. Does he graciously receive the faith and worship of his own who are taught wrong? Yes. But it’s not his will that it should be so. In the times we live, it’s just the way it is. It doesn’t mean it’s desirable and we should pray that God would send laborers (and I believe that means educated ones, as agrees with the whole tenor of the Bible on those who teach his sheep) into the harvest.

 

[Herald]

There are alternatives to traditional brick-and-mortar seminaries. Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary incorporates multi-media distance learning with some time necessary at their campus. As I recall, you must have a mentor at your home church who is vested in your training. CBTS has an accomplished faculty.

 

[Timotheos]

I am almost done with an accredited doctorate. I just cannot finish my dissertation right now because I've recently had a brain inflammation from parasites. I could hardly even read anything 2 months ago due to "swimmy" thoughts and brain fog.

Sorry to hear about this. What and where are you doing your doctorate? I find that we doctoral students need to stick together and help encourage one another.

 

[Polanus1561]

I what way has PRTS endorsed Whitefield? I assume you are referring to Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary and the unaccredited Whitefield Theological Seminary, Lakeland, FL?

Kindly read carefully...

 

[Pergamum]

Sorry to hear about this. What and where are you doing your doctorate? I find that we doctoral students need to stick together and help encourage one another.

Malaysia Baptist Theological Seminary, with the highest Asian accreditation. All coursework finished, but impossible to live among a remote tribe and do a dissertation. I can do it now, I think, since parasites are now gone

 

[Timotheos]

Hello all,

One major shortcoming of Baptists due to our autonomy (as I see it) is to not have an education requirement for ordination. I am trying to compile a list of churches that have an ATS educated teaching pastor and also holds to the 1689. Similar to Founders, but with an education requirement. Has this been done before and I'm reinventing the wheel? I move every 3 years (USMC) and would have loved to have this as a resource before I knew where to look/ask for the information.

Also, if I am not wasting my time and you are someone who fits the above description and want me to add your church to the list, please PM me your info.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there are to my knowledge 4 RB seminaries of varying types that have emerged recently. I have hope that they will continue to thrive.

The purely residential RB seminary is IRBS Theological Seminary. They have a partnership w/ PRTS.

The hybrid types are Covenant Baptist TS (already mentioned above) and a newer one in Arkansas called Grace Bible Theological Seminary.

Then there is the fully online route of Reformed Baptist Seminary.

I also teach at a school in Roanoke (and surrounding areas), the Blue Ridge Institute for Theological Education, that adhere to the reformed confessions including the 1689. I believe it is one of the only seminaries (that I've found) that is confessionally broad (akin to the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals). These type of smaller, confessional schools may very well be the future of seminary education if things keep going the way they are for the big seminary model.

 

[Broadus]

I agree with the gist of everything that's been written. Quantifying training with a degree from an ATS-accredited institution is difficult, of course, and even the best seminaries (whatever criteria one uses) do not guarantee that the minister has been properly trained. Seminaries are all over the place with requirements, theology, and practice.

We have some very good Reformed Baptist seminaries (in my opinion), none of which are ATS-accredited as far as I know. And I just learned of the existence of Grace Bible Theological Seminary, which looks like another worthy effort, though its website isn't very complete.

Were I moving to a new place, I would examine churches' websites and try to get an overall feel for the ministry. Theological and practical emphases can help, and if sermons are online, all the better.

For what it's worth, my M.Div. and Ph.D. come from an ATS-accredited school, but such accreditation is less important to me now than it once was.

 

[ArminianOnceWas]

Kindly read carefully...

I see now. The awkward compound sentence was missing a comma, thus leading to some confusion. Better use of language would have helped there my friend in addition to my multiple readings.

 

[LongWar]

I understand the public argument that some seminaries give for not being accredited by the ATS/region, but in my opinion their underlying fear is that they will fail to earn accreditation and lose what credibility they have, so they do not try for it. There is a lot that goes into earning accreditation. I think that the top-shelf professors are naturally going to gravitate to schools who have established reputations, which makes it harder for the new schools to earn credibility and accreditation. If SBTS/SEBTS/WTS/etc. called any instructor at the unaccredited school with an offer, do you think they wouldn't accept it?

I am not trying to bash the IRBS/PRTS type schools, but outside of this forum, I have never heard of them. Is there potential that they could be the future of reformed baptist churches? In my opinion, absolutely! Not before they "legitimize" themselves through regional accreditation as a valid alternative to the SBTS/WTS level schools though.

 

[Timotheos]

I understand the public argument that some seminaries give for not being accredited by the ATS/region, but in my opinion their underlying fear is that they will fail to earn accreditation and lose what credibility they have, so they do not try for it. There is a lot that goes into earning accreditation. I think that the top-shelf professors are naturally going to gravitate to schools who have established reputations, which makes it harder for the new schools to earn credibility and accreditation. If SBTS/SEBTS/WTS/etc. called any instructor at the unaccredited school with an offer, do you think they wouldn't accept it?

I am not trying to bash the IRBS/PRTS type schools, but outside of this forum, I have never heard of them. Is there potential that they could be the future of reformed baptist churches? In my opinion, absolutely! Not before they "legitimize" themselves through regional accreditation as a valid alternative to the SBTS/WTS level schools though.

...edited to sound like less of a dick.

Just to be sure... you know PRTS is ATS accredited, right?

And IRBSTS is so new, you wouldn't have heard of them outside of the world of higher ed.

As for a prof going from a smaller confessional school to a larger one w/ $$$, that depends on the convictions of the prof. I think some are very much dedicated to their institution's endeavors. Others (perhaps at the adjunct or assistant level) would like to advance in their career and may take a position elsewhere. But those founders of new schools are invested in their success and would not likely jump ship, In my humble opinion.

 

[VictorBravo]

I am not trying to bash the IRBS/PRTS type schools

And before IRBS went on its own, it was affiliated with Westminster Seminary California. An IRBS grad would have received a Westminster diploma. My understanding is that they are actively working on accreditation, as opposed to shying away out of fear of failing.

 

[LongWar]

Just to be sure... you know PRTS is ATS accredited, right?

And IRBSTS is so new, you wouldn't have heard of them outside of the world of higher ed.

As for a prof going from a smaller confessional school to a larger one w/ $$$, that depends on the convictions of the prof. I think some are very much dedicated to their institution's endeavors. Others (perhaps at the adjunct or assistant level) would like to advance in their career and may take a position elsewhere. But those founders of new schools are invested in their success and would not likely jump ship, In my humble opinion.

I did know that, but regional accreditation is obviously a different/higher standard.

And before IRBS went on its own, it was affiliated with Westminster Seminary California. An IRBS grad would have received a Westminster diploma. My understanding is that they are actively working on accreditation, as opposed to shying away out of fear of failing.

I had never heard that before r.e. WTS-C and IRBS. Very interesting. Glad to hear they are moving in the direction of accreditation.