Reformed Circling?

[Andrew35]

So I just read Aimee Byrd's latest post, "Confessional Communities," and felt myself somewhat disturbed.

The group therapy she advocates here, reviewing a book by a Dr. Curt Thompson, reminds me a lot of a currently trendy, Silicon Valley practice called "Circling" (see below illustrations for 6 goals of circling).

"Many of our relationships—not just psychotherapeutic ones—have common blind spots, power gradients, and limit to how helpful one voice (as compared to many) can be in helping us overcome shame. The confessional community gives us a place to engage in real time and space those phenomena in order to achieve greater states of integration, and therefore be more perfect, more whole, even as our Father in heaven is perfectly whole" (Thompson, quoted by Byrd).

Am I overreacting here to what is actually a healthy, Christian communal therapy practice?

This is a genuine question. Counseling is not my area of expertise, and I'm a loner by nature.

*Below is from a "circling" website






(from https://circlinginstitute.com/what-is-circling-method/)

 

[VictorBravo]

Frankly, I don't know. I despise the buzzwords, but don't condemn the aim.

But I think a gathering of friends, after prayer, maybe over a glass of homemade wine, with a commitment to bearing one another's burdens and acknowledging our own sins, does the job admirably.

 

[Taylor]

This just sounds like psychobabble.

 

[Andrew35]

I don't mean to focus this on Byrd. It's just that she's the first I've heard about this, as I follow her blog.

When I followed the link, it seems that this book is enormously popular amongst a number of movers and shakers within the evangelical world. I was curious if anyone here was familiar.

I'm making a mental note to look more into this.

 

[Taylor]

...it seems that this book is enormously popular amongst a number of movers and shakers within the evangelical world.

That's a near-sure sign that it is garbage.

 

[Jack K]

When I followed the link, it seems that this book is enormously popular amongst a number of movers and shakers within the evangelical world. I was curious if anyone here was familiar.

That book won't go on sale for another month, so no one here will have read it unless they got a pre-release copy. And there's no way to know whether or not it will be enormously popular in the evangelical world. The most you might be able to say is that the publisher and author did a good job of collecting endorsements ahead of its release, and I'm not sure I would even say that. The list of endorsements is long, but the names are less prominent than they might be.

The author has written a number of other books, so I suppose one might critique those. The chart you posted above does sound rather pop-psychology buzzwordy, which doesn't appeal to me, but I don't see anything in it that's clearly unbiblical. It's hazardous to try to review a book without being able to actually read it.

 

[Andrew35]

That book won't go on sale for another month, so no one here will have read it unless they got a pre-release copy. And there's no way to know whether or not it's enormously popular in the evangelical world. The most you might be able to say is that the publisher and author did a good job of collecting endorsements ahead of its release, and I'm not sure I would even say that. The list of endorsements is long, but the names are less prominent than they might be.

The author has written a number of other books, so I suppose one might critique those. The chart you posted above does sound rather pop-psychology buzzwordy, which doesn't appeal to me, but I don't see anything in it that's clearly unbiblical. It's hazardous to try to review a book without being able to actually read it.

Well, I kind of wasn't, or wasn't necessarily asking for one.

What I was doing was putting out feelers to see if anyone knew anymore of this than I -- which is very little, at this point. Maybe this guy has broad name recognition? Maybe he's had a blog where he's been posting his idea, or put out other books on the same topic, or something? I don't know.

I didn't say it was "enormously popular in the evangelical world," but rather seems enormously popular among some influential in that broader world. I've definitely heard of some of the endorsers. Kwon, McCracken, and Begbie are names I recognize. And it has a "#1 New Release" button at the top. That seemed significant to me.

The chart itself (above) isn't from the book, it's from the "circling" movement I referenced, which I've heard called the newest Silicon Valley cult. The language and approaches are very similar -- even identical at some points -- hence my concern.

I'm just an overseas teacher who can barely keep up with my own field, which is why I ask questions here.

 

[arapahoepark]

Googling it shows unhidden associations with yoga...

 

[A.Joseph]

Our faith and fellowship is becoming horizontal when it should be vertical. As Reformed folk, that’s clearly our starting point (as well as our middle and ending point). Hard pass on this stuff and some of the nonsense Byrd is peddling. She makes some good points (sometimes) but the circles of authority she’s aligning herself is kinda…..

 

[alexandermsmith]

Commenting purely on her blog post. Even the first paragraph is full of vile nonsense:

"Today I want to introduce his practice of confessional communities. It is a form of group therapy. In reading about this method of interpersonal neurobiological psychotherapy that Dr. Thompson practices, I thought about how our friendships need to be more like this and our discipleship in church. As Dr. Thompson says, “It is in communities like these that we encounter the possibility of being deeply known and where we ‘practice for heaven.’” These small group meetings of between 6-8 people create a space where people are seen, soothed, safe, and secure while they express their grief, trauma, and desires. It’s facilitated and led by the therapists, but the patients play a collaborative part in creating beauty together out of pain and unrequited desires. Both the being seen in a secure setting and the creative collaboration is healing, as this is what we all long for. In this way, the patients get to tell their story and be a part of one another’s’ healing. Dr. Thompson notes, "We need to bear witness to our deepest longings, our greatest joys, our most painful shame, and all the rest in order to have any sense at all of ourselves."

"interpersonal neurobiological psychotherapy" - wow sounds just like the Apostle Paul.

Why does Mrs Byrd find it so hard to have normal friendships with men and women? Does this stuff sound anything like normal, Christian friendship? Why is she obsessed with friendships with men?

And is it really necessary to "bear witness to...our most painful shame" with one another? We confess our sin and shame to God, not to each other. There used to be such a thing as propriety amongst Christians. Where has that gone? Where have modesty and chasteness gone? People who like to talk about their specific sins to others tend not to be people who are ashamed of their sins. Sin is indeed shameful and that which is shameful should not be discussed in groups of people. Secret sins should be confessed to the Lord. They are generally not even within the purview of the session.

Apparently we need to engage in this group hysteria in order to have "any sense at all of ourselves". Frankly, one cannot be a Christian if one has no sense of oneself to begin with. If one has no sense of oneself as a sinner deserving of Hell and totally unable to save oneself; and believing that only the shed blood of Christ can wash his sins away, then one cannot be a Christian. What is being advocated here is narcissism dressed up as "healing". We look to Christ for healing, for the removal of shame, for succour in times of grief and affliction, for rest and joy.

There was not one reference to Scripture in that blog post. Apparently she finds these gossip sessions more spiritually rewarding than the preaching of the Word. That tells you everything. What she is peddling is spiritual darkness. Avoid it, and her, at all costs.

 

[Jack K]

Well, I kind of wasn't, or wasn't necessarily asking for one.

What I was doing was putting out feelers to see if anyone knew anymore of this than I -- which is very little, at this point. Maybe this guy has broad name recognition? Maybe he's had a blog where he's been posting his idea, or put out other books on the same topic, or something? I don't know.

I didn't say it was "enormously popular in the evangelical world," but rather seems enormously popular among some influential in that broader world. I've definitely heard of some of the endorsers. Kwon, McCracken, and Begbie are names I recognize. And it has a "#1 New Release" button at the top. That seemed significant to me.

The chart itself (above) isn't from the book, it's from the "circling" movement I referenced, which I've heard called the newest Silicon Valley cult. The language and approaches are very similar -- even identical at some points -- hence my concern.

I'm just an overseas teacher who can barely keep up with my own field, which is why I ask questions here.

Sorry. Didn't mean to accuse you. Just pointing out that effective marketing can make a book look popular even when no actual customers have read it yet. And endorsers might really like a book or might just be doing someone a favor; you can't always know. Personally, I don't get too worked up about a book's influence until it actually hits some impressive sales marks.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

@Andrew35, when I saw your post title, my brain added the words "like buzzards." I thought maybe there had been some sort of arminian misstep about to be put to good use.

 

[Andrew35]

Commenting purely on her blog post. Even the first paragraph is full of vile nonsense:

"Today I want to introduce his practice of confessional communities. It is a form of group therapy. In reading about this method of interpersonal neurobiological psychotherapy that Dr. Thompson practices, I thought about how our friendships need to be more like this and our discipleship in church. As Dr. Thompson says, “It is in communities like these that we encounter the possibility of being deeply known and where we ‘practice for heaven.’” These small group meetings of between 6-8 people create a space where people are seen, soothed, safe, and secure while they express their grief, trauma, and desires. It’s facilitated and led by the therapists, but the patients play a collaborative part in creating beauty together out of pain and unrequited desires. Both the being seen in a secure setting and the creative collaboration is healing, as this is what we all long for. In this way, the patients get to tell their story and be a part of one another’s’ healing. Dr. Thompson notes, "We need to bear witness to our deepest longings, our greatest joys, our most painful shame, and all the rest in order to have any sense at all of ourselves."

"interpersonal neurobiological psychotherapy" - wow sounds just like the Apostle Paul.

Why does Mrs Byrd find it so hard to have normal friendships with men and women? Does this stuff sound anything like normal, Christian friendship? Why is she obsessed with friendships with men?

And is it really necessary to "bear witness to...our most painful shame" with one another? We confess our sin and shame to God, not to each other. There used to be such a thing as propriety amongst Christians. Where has that gone? Where have modesty and chasteness gone? People who like to talk about their specific sins to others tend not to be people who are ashamed of their sins. Sin is indeed shameful and that which is shameful should not be discussed in groups of people. Secret sins should be confessed to the Lord. They are generally not even within the purview of the session.

Apparently we need to engage in this group hysteria in order to have "any sense at all of ourselves". Frankly, one cannot be a Christian if one has no sense of oneself to begin with. If one has no sense of oneself as a sinner deserving of Hell and totally unable to save oneself; and believing that only the shed blood of Christ can wash his sins away, then one cannot be a Christian. What is being advocated here is narcissism dressed up as "healing". We look to Christ for healing, for the removal of shame, for succour in times of grief and affliction, for rest and joy.

There was not one reference to Scripture in that blog post. Apparently she finds these gossip sessions more spiritually rewarding than the preaching of the Word. That tells you everything. What she is peddling is spiritual darkness. Avoid it, and her, at all costs.

The blogger (not a Christian) from whom I first read about circling referred to it as a form of narcissism whereby you construct your own story for others. But it's not your "real" story of course; it's the image of yourself that you want to project to others. We almost can't help that. And all the focus on authenticity within safe spaces creates new layers of power and deception. And potentially abuse, ironically enough.

I tend to think that does make it dangerous. In my introverted opinion, there's a reason why we have boundaries with others. And a reason why we need established relationships like marriage, friendships, etc. to relax them.

I like a lot of you here. And I might share my needs and prayer requests. We're Christians, after all. And over time, in this limited format, you may learn more about me and I about you. But I'm not about to create a small circle of 6-8 people where we will bare to each other our deepest inner selves and "get vulnerable" with each other. That just doesn't sound healthy to me, particularly in this format.

Another blogger, commenting on this phenomenon, mentioned that an older female friend of his said that "whoever convinced young women that the secret of a healthy relationship is deep interpersonal understanding is guilty of some kind of a war crime.” Seems to be some wisdom in that.

Intimacy and authenticity are good, but they need to come organically. And carefully. These are very powerful human forces, and just because it's framed in theological concepts doesn't remove any of the need for caution.

 

[alexandermsmith]

I would further add that groups like these, and the thinking behind them espoused by Mrs Byrd, isn't actually seeking healing but wallowing in one's own constructed victimhood. If we were serious about moving past hurt and shame we wouldn't be organising groups so we can talk about our hurt and shame to other people. We would be seeking healing and renewing and strengthening in Christ. Instead these people want their trauma or shame or abuse to be their identity and to be validated in that identity, but the Christian's identity is in Christ. The Christian's identity is his being conformed to the image of Christ: justified, sanctified and adopted. Christians may suffer grievously in this life but Paul says: "I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." (Romans 8:18) The Christian response to suffering and affliction is not to wallow in our victimhood, to dwell on it, but to persevere and by grace to turn it to our good (Rom. 5:3-5; Heb. 12:11-14).

 

[A.Joseph]

The bottom line is people are bored with the Gospel. They want scandal, and Driscoll, and controversy, and survivor blogs, and polemics. We can learn when things go wrong but when we dwell on them consciously we are getting away from what truly matters. I know it’s hard to shake the stench of sin but I feel bad for those that don’t have sound, Christ-centered, Reformed preaching to get them on track.

I think a sound church in a sound denomination is vital to shaking these distractions.

There’s a lot that perplexes us and Im glad for forums like these where we can bounce things off one another but there is no substitute for the God given means of grace and worship.

I wonder if Byrd’s church/pastor is failing her based on where she’s seeking comfort and confirmation.

 

[Relztrah]

Like the rest of you, I am reluctant to criticize a book that I haven't read, and won't read. But when I saw this on the opening page of the Circling Institute website ...

The Circling™ Method​

Is our proprietary, multi-stage relational practice and unique transformational modality. It is a dynamic group process that is part-art-form, part-skillful facilitation and part-relational yoga.

... my eyes started to glaze over.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Why does Mrs Byrd find it so hard to have normal friendships with men and women? Does this stuff sound anything like normal, Christian friendship? Why is she obsessed with friendships with men?

This bit is what always gets me. I recall several years ago there were rumours of how she was developing an unhealthy relationship with a minister. These rumours, to my knowledge, were entirely false. However, anyone with any common sense knows that if a minister is perceived to get too friendly with an attractive looking female, the gossip mongers are going to gossip. The most sensible thing is for the minister to maintain an appropriate degree of distance between himself and the person in question (as far as his pastoral responsibilities will allow), lest he give Satan an opportunity for reproach.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

This bit is what always gets me. I recall several years ago there were rumours of how she was developing an unhealthy relationship with a minister. These rumours, to my knowledge, were entirely false. However, anyone with any common sense knows that if a minister is perceived to get too friendly with an attractive looking female, the gossip mongers are going to gossip. The most sensible thing is for the minister to maintain an appropriate degree of distance between himself and the person in question (as far as his pastoral responsibilities will allow), lest he give Satan an opportunity for reproach.

I have no idea who this woman is, or about her character, but I will say it has always been really hard for me to understand how any person in a relationship can keep closer friendships with the opposite sex. I don't see anything healthy in such a thing.

 

[A.Joseph]

This bit is what always gets me. I recall several years ago there were rumours of how she was developing an unhealthy relationship with a minister. These rumours, to my knowledge, were entirely false. However, anyone with any common sense knows that if a minister is perceived to get too friendly with an attractive looking female, the gossip mongers are going to gossip. The most sensible thing is for the minister to maintain an appropriate degree of distance between himself and the person in question (as far as his pastoral responsibilities will allow), lest he give Satan an opportunity for reproach.

From her book, Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood…



I’m uncomfortable with that line of questioning. It seems like it’s setting a carnal standard or lens to make a point. I guess she’s pushing back against a related, contrary perception. Or this could be a case of the straw man fallacy ?

….”Why are we, over two thousand years later, still debating who can pass the offering basket?”

….I guess I missed this debate…..

 

[Edward]

Is our proprietary, multi-stage relational practice and unique transformational modality. It is a dynamic group process that is part-art-form, part-skillful facilitation and part-relational yoga.

... my eyes started to glaze over.

In Texas, when we step in something like that, we just call it Bull ****. (Self censoring due to the sensitivities of more delacate brothers and sisters here. But there really isn't any reason to avoid embracing our Anglo-Saxon roots.)

 

[SolaScriptura]

Is “Reformed circling” akin to “Voltures circling” ?

 

[Andrew35]

Is “Reformed circling” akin to “Voltures circling” ?

You know those times when you make a title and don't think through other possible interpretations...?

What I was actually doing was paralleling the hip, trendy, Silicon Valley, quasi-cultish practice of "circling" whereby you lay yourself bare to a small group of others in search of authenticity and sharing stories and pain and all that... and what appeared to me to be an Evangelical (in this case, ”Reformed“) version of the same. Then trying to think aloud through the implications. There's certainly a lot of overlap in language, concepts, and practice.

Maybe that's fine? I don't know. I just found it worth exploring. This level of planned, structured intimacy doesn't appeal to me at all, personally. I'd rather go to church, receive the means of grace, and connect with people on an organic level.

I have read since that this guy (Thompson) has had public work for a number of years, so I might want to dig into that a bit. I.e., this particular book is just the latest of a trail.

 

[Andrew35]

From her book, Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: How the Church Needs to ...
View attachment 8335


I’m uncomfortable with that line of questioning. It seems like it’s setting a carnal standard or lens to make a point. I guess she’s pushing back against a related, contrary perception. Or this could be a case of the straw man fallacy ?

….”Why are we, over two thousand years later, still debating who can pass the offering basket?”

….I guess I missed this debate…..

That's a good point.

This kind of goes back to my history with Byrd's books:

I loved her first book; bought it for my wife. She really liked it too.

So when Why Can't We Be Friends was released a few years back, I immediately bought it as soon as it was available. My wife is East Asian, which may or may not be relevant.

She read it and I asked her how it was, and she said she didn't really like it.

When I asked her why, the only answer she could really give was related to what you said: It seemed to be responding to some kind of problem that we hadn't actually observed or experienced; and also, in her words, seemed overly focused on someone by the name of "Doug Wilson."

 

[Ben Zartman]

This seems like the next logical step to the "small groups" weekly studies that were popular at one church we were at. The idea was that in a small group you were more comfortable, and getting to know your groupmates you could learn the Bible better. I always wondered why the Lord's Day wasn't considered the best time to learn the Bible.
Seems to me that circles of closer friends happen by themselves, when folk are united by another common interest--perhaps they live close enough together to visit conveniently; perhaps they went half-shares in a log splitter--but to meet for the sole purpose of talking about feelings? Bleh. The only friends I like are those that don't pester you to tell them your feelings all the time. I can't think of anything more fake or uncomfortable than having to tell one person--much less several--all of my innermost baggage. And I sure don't want to hear theirs.

 

[Osnah]

Having not read the book, I must say that this book sounds like a touch of man-centeredness splashed with mysticism, disguised as "Christianity" and should be avoided. I would say that this practice should be avoided at all costs, as they are introducing New-Age mysticism with elements of yoga, channeling, etc.

From the Circling Website:
As everyone engages with genuine curiosity and shares their personal experience of being with you, you discover that who you ARE is more magnificent than any limited idea about who you “should” be. Because of this, Circling™ is often deeply nourishing and can lead to spiritual insights and awakenings.

Learn from Circling Institute partners Guy Sengstock, the original founder & genius of the now worldwide practice of Circling and Authentic Relating and Jon Cotton, a master circler with 30 years of experience teaching meditation, intuition & psychic abilities, firewalking, intimacy, & numerous other modalities.

From the owner (Guy Sengstock) in defining what circling is on a YT video:
"Circling has been telling me what it is ever since the beginning. I feel like my job is to listen deeply to it.... It's a deep inner subjective relational yoga or meditation."

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Carnal Reformation (which is like methodology, intellectual alignment or program driven) is not inward transformation. One comes from below (I am not saying it is bad but it can be deceptive) and one comes from above (which I am saying is necessary if we are in Union with Christ because He brings it).

Know the real thing and the false will be exposed.

 

[jw]

Seems rather square to me.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Seems rather square to me.

Here we go, round and round!

 

[jw]

Here we go, round and round!

What’s your angle with this post?

 

[SolaScriptura]

What’s your angle with this post?

Don't be obtuse!