Tyrese
Puritan Board Sophomore
Ima be honest. I don't think so because the Scriptures don't give us any rules about how a seminary should operate.
Reformed Seminaries & Female Teachers
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Ima be honest. I don't think so because the Scriptures don't give us any rules about how a seminary should operate.
It is no mere institution of higher learning -seminaries are gatekeepers for pastoral ministry. In general, the M.Div isn't optional, and churches don't grant them. A seminary's stamp of academic approval is part of the qualification process for a call.
That makes the seminary an authority, both real and by perception, in the life of the students and churches who rely on it. With female professors, that means a man is then placed under the Biblical instruction of a woman in order to proceed to the ministry.
Tyrese
Puritan Board Sophomore
Now my question for you is we're is the Biblical support for giving a seminary authority, and for churches to rely upon it? I ask because you appear to be saying that seminaries have equal authority to the church in its endorsement of those individuals who are and are not called by God to the ministry.
If there has been an unfortunate blurring of lines between an independent institution and the visible church, the solution is not for the institution to start acting more like the church, but for the distinction to be reasserted, or the institution to become an agency under the control of the church.
If the latter choice were to be taken, some renewed attention to what some have considered the distinct ecclesiastical office of doctor might be in order.
Caroline
Puritan Board Sophomore
It seems to me that there is a large gray area on this one. In some measure, it is inevitable that men will learn from women if they are in close proximity at all. Even that pastors will learn from women. If I happen to blurt out something insightful while making a prayer request, it is possible that my pastor may learn something. If I happen to ask a question that he has not considered before so that it changes his perspective a bit, then he learns something. If I am not insightful and my questions are painfully ignorant, then he may learn patience and forbearance, and he has still learned something from a woman. I would suggest that most pastors on this board have learned something from their wife or from reading the posts of women on this board.
The question is whether the learning process places someone under the authority of a woman, and I think something could be said on both sides of that. But in general, I'd have to agree with WTS. The men who are in training are not pastors at the time. They may or may not ever become pastors. By the time they become pastors, what limited authority a Hebrew instructor may have will be long past. Most men have female teachers at some point in their lives. I don't think they still consider themselves under the authority of old Mrs. Harbough twenty years later. So I don't see anything wrong with it. It is an exchange of information in a classroom, not a discipleship situation.
The question is whether the learning process places someone under the authority of a woman, and I think something could be said on both sides of that. But in general, I'd have to agree with WTS. The men who are in training are not pastors at the time. They may or may not ever become pastors. By the time they become pastors, what limited authority a Hebrew instructor may have will be long past. Most men have female teachers at some point in their lives. I don't think they still consider themselves under the authority of old Mrs. Harbough twenty years later. So I don't see anything wrong with it. It is an exchange of information in a classroom, not a discipleship situation.
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
First, who said anything about equal authority? The stronger claim is not necessary for the question to be appropriate. For example, no one is claiming that a degree from a certain seminary guarantees a person an open spot in ministry at any particular church.
Second, is it not the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be an authority over those taught/accredited/graded?
Lastly, it is seems that we need to address the question in the context of what Seminary is today. Given an answer to that question, it would then be appropriate to think about what needs to change and why.
CT
Caroline
Puritan Board Sophomore
<<
Second, is it not the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be an authority over those taught/accredited/graded?>>
As someone who used to teach in a college, I'd say no. The authority is limited to keeping a classroom moving along and ensuring that students exhibit appropriate level of learning in order to pass the class. I never felt like I had control over a student's family life, religious inclination, or personal decisions. The authority that my pastor and elders have in my life is entirely different from that which a teacher has over adult students. The authority of a teacher is extremely limited and ends at the conclusion of the semester. Like I said, it is not discipleship. A pastor declares the Word of God. A teacher declares the square root of 16. Or (considering that it is a Hebrew class) the irregular dual plural forms of various nouns. There is a difference.
Second, is it not the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be an authority over those taught/accredited/graded?>>
As someone who used to teach in a college, I'd say no. The authority is limited to keeping a classroom moving along and ensuring that students exhibit appropriate level of learning in order to pass the class. I never felt like I had control over a student's family life, religious inclination, or personal decisions. The authority that my pastor and elders have in my life is entirely different from that which a teacher has over adult students. The authority of a teacher is extremely limited and ends at the conclusion of the semester. Like I said, it is not discipleship. A pastor declares the Word of God. A teacher declares the square root of 16. Or (considering that it is a Hebrew class) the irregular dual plural forms of various nouns. There is a difference.
Goodcheer68
Puritan Board Sophomore
You have yet to show that a woman is not allowed to teach a man in any context. Especially in light of the fact that Chris pointed out that
" it would've been sin for Eunice & Lois to teach Timothy or for Priscilla & Aquilla to teach Apollos" if a woman was not aloud to teach men at any time.
In scripture, women are shown rightly teaching other women about home life (Titus 2), and teaching men or women in a small private or home setting about the Bible. I hope for my wife and I to teach and to be taught in such ways.
To go beyond that, the burden of proof isn't on me. It's on those who want women to do things the Bible doesn't commend.
I'm perfectly fine with Priscilla, Eunice and Lois. But, to name two examples: Beth Moore isn't being Priscilla when she preaches to men at Passion, and a seminary professor isn't being Eunice or Lois when she lectures current and future ministers about the Bible.
Goodcheer68
Puritan Board Sophomore
So If the professor was to teach the future ministers at home then that would be fine? I think the principle is what others have mentioned, its not necessarily no teaching, as much as it is within a church setting.
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
That a pastor has a greater authority level in various ways than a math professor etc does nothing to even touch the point that it is the nature of teaching/accreditation/grading to be in authority over those placed under them.
CT
Goodcheer68
Puritan Board Sophomore
Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but it seems then female teacher assistants who only grade papers would be unbiblical then?
Caroline
Puritan Board Sophomore
Women here on this board will hold forth that the Word of God reads as X and not Y. I once explained to a minister (not here, but in another context) the errors of his theory that the dual plural for a certain word in the first chapter of Genesis was of special spiritual significance just because it was a dual plural. I pointed out that that word was ALWAYS a dual plural and there just wasn't another way to say it. I don't think the passage in Timothy intended that women are never RIGHT about anything. It specifically mentions teaching in an authoritative context in the church. I don't deny that some sort of vague case could be made out regarding seminary teachers (because they are teaching people who include some who will go into ministry), but it is a very vague one, and there is a twisting and winding path to get there. Like I said, a teacher's authority is only over exams and such. When I had students who left my class and went straight out to get drunk, or when they smooched their homosexual partner outside in the hallway before class, there wasn't anything I could do about it. I expect that this female professor has no ecclesiastical authority, and that if she DID feel that some action needed to be taken regarding the faith or life of a student, she would have to call on (male) leadership to deal with the matter.
I don't feel strongly that seminaries SHOULD have female teachers, but in this case, it seems to be a wild overreaction to say that a woman is in authority over a man. A woman clearly UNDER authority at the seminary is teaching a class on the Hebrew language. She is not leading church services or conducting church discipline, as far as I know. If she is, I will join the "hang her" brigade, but under the circumstances, it seems about as harmless as having a woman teaching high school Spanish. Some guy who took her class and went on to become a pastor might use the knowledge to help him in his ministry on a mission trip to Uruguay, or even to decide whether his Spanish translation of the Bible is a good translation, but I don't think he'd feel like he was under the authority of Mrs. Gonzalez, his high school teacher.
Biblically speaking, we might consider that the Bible includes stories (and even direct quotations and songs) from women such as Miriam, Ruth, Esther, and Mary. Pastors preach on what we can learn from these. None of these women held a position of ecclesiastical authority. But they still were allowed to speak (although not from a position of pastoral authority), and sermons today extol them as powerful lessons.
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Goodcheer68
Puritan Board Sophomore
Biblically speaking, we might consider that the Bible includes stories (and even direct quotations and songs) from women such as Miriam, Ruth, Esther, and Mary. Pastors preach on what we can learn from these. None of these women held a position of ecclesiastical authority. But they still were allowed to speak (although not from a position of pastoral authority), and sermons today extol them as powerful lessons.
Nice insight, thanks. I was thinking yesterday of how Philip had four daughters that prophesied and wondering what that looked like. Maybe beautiful songs of praise......
Nice insight, thanks. I was thinking yesterday of how Philip had four daughters that prophesied and wondering what that looked like. Maybe beautiful songs of praise......
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