Regeneration - with or without the Word

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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by pastorway
If one has been converted without the Scriptures then there has been no conversion at all. It is the Word of God that renews our minds and God does not speak to us apart from it. We are not converted and then find the Scripture to back it up. God uses the Scripture to accomplish the conversion, be it salvation, sanctification, or growing in grace.

Psalm 19:7 - The Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Phillip

PS - welcome! it is good to have another new member of the Puritan Board from AUSTIN, TEXAS!!

[Edited on 12-3-04 by pastorway]

Phillip,
You are, as usual, accurate. No one can be converted without the hearing of Gods message. They can however be regenerated without it........
 
Not so Scott. The word translated "converts" in Psalm 19:7 means to bring to life, not as in a conversion but as in regeneration. This means that the Word of God itself "is the power of God to salvation" - it is the Word that the Holy Spirit uses to grant us new life, to regenerate us. You cannot be regenerated without the Word.

Phillip
 
And David, I might add: Psalm 22:9-10 "Yet you [God] are he who took me [David] from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother´s breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother´s womb you have been my God" (ESV).
 
I think the examples of John baptist and David are the expections not the norm. I believe the norm is found in 1 Pet 1:23, James 1:18. We are regenerate and converted through the preached Word.

VanVos
 
Hi Jon,
The rationale gleened from John is that men can be regenerated without the word, yet not converted. What I said to Pastor way was:

Phillip,
You are, as usual, accurate. No one can be converted without the hearing of Gods message. They can however be regenerated without it........

Conversion only comes about under the preaching of Gods word. I hope you didn't think I was infering that men can be saved apart from the preaching of Gods word.? :scholar:

John 3 supports this idea:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.

How are men able to see the scriptures preached if they are not fiirst regenerated and given sight? The ordo shows that their are obvious components to salvation.

Rom 8:28 But we know that to the ones loving God all things work together for good, to those being called according to purpose;
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Conversion is not regeneration, and regeneration is not conversion.


[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Psalm 19:7

The Law of the Lord is perfect,

reviving the soul (NIV and ESV)
restoring the soul (NASB)
converting the soul (NKJV)

The Hebrew word translated as "reviving, restoring, or converting" means literally to "return to life" or "to be revived/restored from death." This is regeneration, not "conversion."


Who says God did not use the Word to regenerate David and Johnny B? His ways are above ours.....

[Edited on 12-6-04 by pastorway]
 
Phillip,
Are you then saying that people can be regenerated outside of hearing the preached word, because that is what you would have to conclude in regards to John. He was filled w/ the HS while in the womb= regenerated and converted. Is this what you believe?


The law of the Lord IS perfect, and surely (able) to convert the soul! Regeneration does not necessarily require the same process as conversion i.e. John did not necessarily sit under preaching while in the womb, yet was filled w/ the spirit; Men must manufacture the information of the gospel to be converted. John was not filled with the spirit unless at the least regenerate; later when he heard the word, he was converted. This is the typical process that scripture supports.


[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
I must agree with Rev. Goundry. We must be very slow to form doctrines based on the Gospel narratives. My (not even a whole) two-cents worth.
 
Lets establish some facts:

Jesus said in John:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.

Men cannot see things of the kingdom prior to being regenerated......

1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 10:17
Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.

Faith comes to those whom hear the word of God, correct?

Rom 10:14
Rom 10:14 How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching?

How can men believe if they have not heard?

Hence, John (in the womb) could not have been yet converted, but he must have been, in the least regenerated (for he had the HS) while in the womb.

Regeneration is not conversion and conversion is not regeneration.

here's another example:

Jdg 13:5 For, behold, you are pregnant and bearing a son. And a razor shall not go on his head, for the boy shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb. And he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.


[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
so a baby in the womb cannot have the Word preached to him?

and a person already born is in better shape to "hear" because while they are still dead in sin they are walking around on the earth and able to be "preached" to?

What stops God from preaching the Word to a baby in the womb? He does the impossible every time He saves any us.

And - babies do hear in the womb and respond.

All I am saying is that the Word is what the Spirit uses to call us to life and His work is not bound or limited by whether or not we have been born yet.....

Phillip
 
Phillip,
Rom 10:14 How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching?
 
oh , yeah, now I see it, God cannot save a person who can't hear......or is mentally incapable of understanding the gospel, or has not been born yet.....

Scott - God can and does do the impossible every time He saves any of us.

A baby in the womb can hear the gospel preached and be regenerated. John the Baptist was.

Phillip
 
Phillip,
With all due respect; are you reading the thread? I have used John as an example already about 3 times. I know Johns condition while in the womb. I defined that in an earlier post. Is it possible that you are combining the two components of the ordo?

I am not speaking of the imbecile or the infant whom dies in the womb or at birth. I am speaking of the person whom will live a full life; whom will have the capability to receive, accept, repent. I agree, God works in the life of the imbecile and infant ina a way none of us can define. However, orthodoxically, the scriptures are clear. One must hear the gospel and respond in like manner. An infant cannot do this. An infant cannot manufacture the information put before him or her. Does not Gods word state, decide this day whom you will serve? An infant cannot distinguish this information from a bottle of milk.

Regenerate yes, but not converted. Conversion takes preaching. Preaching presents conditions. Conditions must be manufactured. How can an infant repent? Receive, accept?

[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Paul,
John was regenerate in the womb, correct? Does the bible substantiate this claim? Is regeneration and conversion one in the same? Does John 3:3 show that regeneration does not require the preached word? Can a man be converted outside of the preaching and hearing of the word?

Nice picture. My cigars bigger than you pipe!!!:banana:

[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Scott said:

Conversion only comes about under the preaching of Gods word. I hope you didn't think I was infering that men can be saved apart from the preaching of Gods word.?

Hi Scott
I know you weren't infering that men can be saved without the preached Word. Conversion is the result of regeneration, which normally occurs through the preached Word 1 Pet 1:23, although the can be exceptions i.e. John the Baptist. Conversion happens when an individual repents and believes Acts 3:19. Conversion is used in scripture to describe a self aware person who repents and believes the gospel.

Jonathan

[Edited on 6-12-2004 by VanVos]
 
If you don't own "Regeneration" by Peter Van Mastricht please go and buy it. It would clear threads like this up in the time it would take to read the work. Edwards thought it was the greatest book written besides the bible. I persoanlly loved it - it is one of my favorites. $13.25 from at CVBBS.com


Link:

http://tinyurl.com/4ubcl

{Edited link - make TinyUrls if link is that long}

[Edited on 12/7/2004 by fredtgreco]
 
Originally posted by VanVos
Scott said:

Conversion only comes about under the preaching of Gods word. I hope you didn't think I was infering that men can be saved apart from the preaching of Gods word.?

Hi Scott
I know you weren't infering that men can be saved without the preached Word. Conversion is the result of regeneration, which normally occurs through the preached Word 1 Pet 1:23, although the can be exceptions i.e. John the Baptist. Conversion happens when an individual repents and believes Acts 3:19. Conversion is used in scripture to describe a self aware person who repents and believes the gospel.

Jonathan

[Edited on 6-12-2004 by VanVos]

conversion is the result of regeneration, which normally occurs through the preached word

I agree. However, men do not need the preached word to become regenerate. John is the proof. Conversion cannot be accomplisahed outside of Gods message.
 
Johnnnnn,
Cmon. Put up a fight! I know you have more than that hiding. I know you believe that John is not the norm. What do you base this presumption upon? How do we know that John is not the norm?
 
You cannot be saved at all in any sense without the working of the Spirit through the Word of God. That is why I keep posting Psalm 19:7. It says that the Word of God is what regenerates us. There is no regeneration (or conversion) without the Word of God.

I am saying that since the Bible tells us that John was regenerate in the womb then we have to understand that the Spirit of God used the Word of God to accomplish this. That is all I am saying.

As to how He did it I don't know. In the Scriptures we have people preaching, angels preaching, etc. How was the Word of God preached to John in the womb? I don't know that. The Bible does not say. But the Bible does say that the Word must be necessarily present if one is to be regenerated.

God works with by means and the means He has given for salvation is His Word - Ps 19:7; Rom 1:16; Is 55:10, etc. So whether we understand HOW He does it or not, the Word must be present for one to be regenerate.

Phillip
 
Phillip,
I believe you are confusing regeneration and conversion. Where does preaching come into play in John 3:3?

[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
What does Psalm 19:7 have to do with regeneration anyway?

and people are asking ME if I have been reading the thread??

posted by pastorway earlier in this discussion

Psalm 19:7

The Law of the Lord is perfect,

reviving the soul (NIV and ESV)
restoring the soul (NASB)
converting the soul (NKJV)

The Hebrew word translated as "reviving, restoring, or converting" means literally to "return to life" or "to be revived/restored from death." This is regeneration, not "conversion."

The Law of the Lord, the gospel, the Word of God - all these terms refer to the same thing. The revealed Word of God from the Apostels and Prophets, recorded for us in the Holy Bible.

We cannot be regenerated apart from the Word. God has designed it that way. (Ps 19:7; Rom 1:16; Is 55:10, etc)

Phillip

[Edited on 12-6-04 by pastorway]
 
Phillip, this is the current benefit that the servant of the Lord is receiving.
Are these not Hebrew parallelisms?

The Law of Jehovah is perfect = reviving the soul.
The Testimony of Jehovah is sure = making the simple wise.

The precepts of Jehovah are right = rejoicing the heart.
The commands of Jehovah are pure = giving light to the eyes.

The fear of Jehovah is clean = enduring forever.
The judgments of Jehovah are true = they are righteous altogether.

*They are methods of growth.*

Then the servants turns to being excited about what teh Word does for him:

Psa 19:10 They are more precious than gold, even much fine gold, and sweeter than honey and drops from the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Also Your servant is warned by them; in keeping of them is great reward.

He is revived by the Word.

Where does this speak of regeneration?
 
I have shown that Ps 19:7 explains that it is the perfect Word of God used by the Holy Spirit that regenerates us. The word usage and context is clear.

Where does the Bible say we can be saved (in any sense - regeneration, conversion, justofocation, etc) WITHOUT the Word of God?

It is the Word that regenerates (Ps 19:7), it is the Word that is the very power of God to salvation (Rom 1:16), it is the Word that always accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent forth, without fail (Is 55:10).

What Scripture can we point to and say, "See, the Word is not always necessary for salvation" ??

Phillip
 
Owen's salient comments on Regeneration:

Secondly, Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is the same work, for the kind of it, and wrought by the same power of the Spirit in all that are regenerate, or ever were, or shall be so, from the beginning of the world unto the end thereof.

Great variety there is in the application of the outward means which the Holy Spirit is pleased to use and make effectual towards the accomplishment of this great work nor can the ways and manner hereof be reduced unto any certain order, for the Spirit worketh how and when he pleaseth, following the sole rule of his own will and wisdom.

Mostly, God makes use of the preaching of the word; thence called "œthe ingrafted word, which is able to save our souls," James 1:21; and the "œincorruptible seed," by which we are "œborn again," 1 Peter 1:23. Sometimes it is wrought without it; as in all those who are regenerate before they come to the use of reason, or in their infancy. Sometimes men are called, and so regenerate, in an extraordinary manner; as was Paul. But mostly they are so in and by the use of ordinary means, instituted, blessed, and sanctified of God to that end and purpose.

From Vol 3. Pneumatologia
 
That is a good post Fred. I was hoping you would jump into this one.

I agree for the most part with Owen but I have one question in thinking this through - when Owen writes, "Sometimes it is wrought without it; as in all those who are regenerate before they come to the use of reason, or in their infancy" how can we know that the inability of a person to use reason precludes the use of the Word by the Spirit to regenerate them?

Regeneration is not dependent upon human reason but upon the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think we do not understand how God might accomplish this but I do not see how we can say that because we don't understand it then God cannot use the Word to regenerate those without "reason."

The Word is the usual means - and He can use it how He pleases, even regenerating a babe in the womb.

Is this not true?

Phillip
 
Originally posted by pastorway
That is a good post Fred. I was hoping you would jump into this one.

I agree for the most part with Owen but I have one question in thinking this through - when Owen writes, "Sometimes it is wrought without it; as in all those who are regenerate before they come to the use of reason, or in their infancy" how can we know that the inability of a person to use reason precludes the use of the Word by the Spirit to regenerate them?

Regeneration is not dependent upon human reason but upon the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think we do not understand how God might accomplish this but I do not see how we can say that because we don't understand it then God cannot use the Word to regenerate those without "reason."

The Word is the usual means - and He can use it how He pleases, even regenerating a babe in the womb.

Is this not true?

Phillip

Phillip,

I think what we can say (and what Owen does say) is that regeneration is not the work of the Word, but the Spirit. The Spirit ordinarily works with the Word, but is at liberty to work without it. The Word is an instrument , indeed THE instrument in the Spirit's hands. So I don't think we need to restrict the Spirit to the Word and try and figure out a way for the Word to get at an infant; at the same time, we ought not to deny that it is by means of the Word that the Spirit regenerates.

I'm surprised nobody has quoted 1 Peter 1:23:

having been born again (avnagegennomoi), not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

which much more clearly than Ps. 19 shows the relationship between regeneration and the Word. Peter is clearly referring to regeneration and not conversion.
 
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