Resources on the Albigensians?

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
I've been seeing some people online point to the Albigensians as proto-Protestants, yet they haven't cited reputable sources. I don't want to condemn them unnecessarily (not that my condemnation really means anything), yet I am also suspicious of Trail-of-Blood type theories. What are some good, scholarly resources on them?
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I’m curious too. This was something that Spurgeon had more than a fleeting interest in if I remember correctly. I think the Albigensians have clumsily been employed as an apologetics tool against Rome. That seemed to be more of an “enemy of my enemy” thing over anything verifiable.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Gentlemen,

Here are some sources (no ISBNs on the volumes) :

Church History from the Birth of Christ to the 18th Century, 2 Vols., by William Jones (London, 1826; reprinted 1983 in USA by Church History Research & Archives; reprinted by Triangle Press, Conrad MT) (deals extensively with the Albigenses and Waldenses / Vaudois in both volumes)
The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont and of the Albigenses, by Peter Allix (Oxford, at the Clarendon Press; reprinted 1989 in USA by Church History Research & Archives, Gallatin, TN, Publishers of Ecclesiastical Histories.)
The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses, by George Stanley Faber (Pub. by R.B. Seeley and W. Burnside, London; reprinted 1990 in USA by Church History Research & Archives)
The History of the Waldenses, 4th Ed., by J.A. Wylie, LL.D (Cassell & Co., London, Paris & New York; reprinted 1985 in USA by Church History Research & Archives)
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I think their orthodox pedigrees are well documented and attested; it was their enemies, the Church of Rome, who wrote much about them, slandering them. No Cult, these folks, particularly the Waldenses.
 

SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
I was pretty sure that the Cathars / Albigensians were a type of Gnostic heretic sect that believed in weird stuff.

I think the believed in the "Bad Old God" of the Old Testament and the "Good God" of the New Testament.

I believe they denied the physical resurrection of Christ.
 

Gwallard

Puritan Board Freshman
Gentlemen,

Here are some sources (no ISBNs on the volumes) :

Church History from the Birth of Christ to the 18th Century, 2 Vols., by William Jones (London, 1826; reprinted 1983 in USA by Church History Research & Archives; reprinted by Triangle Press, Conrad MT) (deals extensively with the Albigenses and Waldenses / Vaudois in both volumes)
The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont and of the Albigenses, by Peter Allix (Oxford, at the Clarendon Press; reprinted 1989 in USA by Church History Research & Archives, Gallatin, TN, Publishers of Ecclesiastical Histories.)
The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses, by George Stanley Faber (Pub. by R.B. Seeley and W. Burnside, London; reprinted 1990 in USA by Church History Research & Archives)
The History of the Waldenses, 4th Ed., by J.A. Wylie, LL.D (Cassell & Co., London, Paris & New York; reprinted 1985 in USA by Church History Research & Archives)
Can't help much, but at least I can do this:


History of the Christian Church: From the Birth of Christ to the 18th Century (2-Volume Set) (Church History)

ISBN-10 : 1583391665

ISBN-13 : 978-1583391662

Download here free (I think)

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_History_of_the_Christian_Church_from.html?id=Syw_AAAAYAAJ

PDF:

http://nashpublications.com/wp-cont...-of-the-Christian-Church-by-William-Jones.pdf


Kindle edition for $2.99 here:

https://www.amazon.com/HISTORY-CHRISTIAN-CHURCH-Christ-Century-ebook/dp/B00BCQ2HSY



The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont and of the Albigenses

No ISBN, as far as I can see. But the OCLC number is 904349940 (see https://www.worldcat.org/title/eccl...bigenses/oclc/904349940&referer=brief_results)

The chapter especially on the Albigenses can be found here: http://www.giveshare.org/churchhistory/allix/albigenses.html

The whole book can be found here:

https://archive.org/details/someremarksupone00alliuoft


The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses

1838 edition

PDF:

http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-8/LIBRARY/FAB_HAVA.PDF

Or here:

https://archive.org/details/FaberGe...ncientVallensesAndAlbigenses/page/n5/mode/2up


1990 edition

ISBN-10 : 0685453480

ISBN-13 : 978-0685453483

2015 edition

ISBN 10: 1331054184

ISBN 13: 9781331054184

The History of the Waldenses

PDF of 1860 edition (I think): https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/the_history_of_the_waldenses.pdf

4th edition is from the 1920’s, but here is a newer, cheaper 2016 reprint.


ISBN-10 : 1519095171

ISBN-13 : 978-1519095176
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Are the Waldenses being lumped in with the Cathars? That's what it looks like. I'm willing to grant that the Waldenses might have been good guys, but the Cathars' dualism seems fairly well established.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Grant, in providing digital sources (and ISBNs) for these works you have done a great service to researchers into the reality of the Waldenses / Vaudois and the Albigenses, and those who slander them — namely Rome, in its seeking to justify its horrendous persecution of the dissenters to Romish doctrine and practice! Thank you! (Even though I have the hard copies, I downloaded the digital versions, 'cause one never knows when one will have to travel light!)
 

arapahoepark

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Are the Waldenses being lumped in with the Cathars? That's what it looks like. I'm willing to grant that the Waldenses might have been good guys, but the Cathars' dualism seems fairly well established.
I've heard both sides. Much ignorance in this area but, I think they may have taken their inspiration from them. So they make for interesting role models.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Hello Sean,

On what basis do you assert "The Albigensians are Cathars" (Cathari) ?

I think Peter Allix exonerates them of this Romish calumny well in his Chapters 13, 14, and on, in his Remarks Upon the Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of the Albigenses.

Reading through it he seems just to assert that the Albigensians are the proto-Reformers without really giving thorough historical analysis for it. Furthermore, I am not so sure you can draw a straight line from Irenaeus's teachings in the 2nd century to the Albigensians 1000 years later. And then, almost without warning, he brings the Waldensians into it. Nobody is questioning the Waldensians here, so I am not sure what that serves.
 

Charles Johnson

Puritan Board Sophomore
I checked Hottinger and he also asserts that the Albigenses were Waldenses. That does seem to be the simplest possible explanation, and it would explain why no distinctly "albigensian" records survive. But I'd hardly consider myself an expert on the matter.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Both Faber in his work, and Jones in his, exonerate the "Cathari"-labeled Albigenses from accusations against them — accusations made by their persecutors and murderers, Rome, to justify themselves.

Edit: I would add to this that J.A. Wylie, in his book (noted above), concurs as well — that the Albigenses were a sister church to the Waldenses, only separated geographically.
 
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SeanPatrickCornell

Puritan Board Sophomore
Seems weird to me that there's such a huge split in opinion between "Albigensians were neo-Gnostic Cathar / Bogomil heretics" on one side and "Rome was lying, the Albigensians were good proto-Protestants" on the other side.

Until I came to saving faith and understood orthodox Triune Christianity, the only people I knew who stuck up for the Albigensians were "Trail of Blood" type Restorationists (for example Herbert W. Armstrong / WWCG) who pointed to any group outside of the Roman papacy as evidence that the "true Church" was alive and (relatively) well through history.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Seems weird to me that there's such a huge split in opinion between "Albigensians were neo-Gnostic Cathar / Bogomil heretics" on one side and "Rome was lying, the Albigensians were good proto-Protestants" on the other side.

Until I came to saving faith and understood orthodox Triune Christianity, the only people I knew who stuck up for the Albigensians were "Trail of Blood" type Restorationists (for example Herbert W. Armstrong / WWCG) who pointed to any group outside of the Roman papacy as evidence that the "true Church" was alive and (relatively) well through history.

That's sort of my take. I can grant that there isn't evidence that the Albigensians were sexually depraved dualists, but by the same token I don't see any reliable evidence that they were true Protestants.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Hello Sean,

You said there's a "huge split in opinion" — but the side accusing the Albigensians, who are they, and where is their documentation? Before I looked into the matter, I would have agreed with you, for I heard bad comments regarding them also — though it now appears the source is only Rome.

Jacob,

Are not the historians above reliable? Regarding Jones it is held against him by some that he is a Baptist, and interprets things from that view, though I've not heard critiques of him other than that. The others, I've not heard any reproach of them except from Rome, and Rome defenders.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Hello Sean,

You said there's a "huge split in opinion" — but the side accusing the Albigensians, who are they, and where is their documentation? Before I looked into the matter, I would have agreed with you, for I heard bad comments regarding them also — though it now appears the source is only Rome.

Jacob,

Are not the historians above reliable? Regarding Jones it is held against him by some that he is a Baptist, and interprets things from that view, though I've not heard critiques of him other than that. The others, I've not heard any reproach of them except from Rome, and Rome defenders.

The Jones works doesn't deal much with primary documentation of the Albigensians. It trades on the fact that they were hated by Rome and then throws in phrases like "Thw word of God grew mightily." It seems like circular reasoning to me.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
And the testimonies of Allix, Faber, and Wylie? Any sources for your opinions besides Rome? These are not "Trail-of-Blood type theorists."

That's part of the problem: paucity of primary sources. I grant that Rome did bad things in her history, but to dismiss her history because she is Rome is the genetic fallacy. The authors you cite don't provide documentation (that I can recall) showing what the average Albigensian assumed himself to believe.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Jacob, you can read the PDFs Grant provided in post #6, which are searchable, and give documentation. Rome, the habitation of devils, lies, especially in such matters as justifying her murdering of those who righteously dissent with her abominations.

This thread is valuable precisely because of this documentation.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Jacob, you can read the PDFs Grant provided in post #6, which are searchable, and give documentation. Rome, the habitation of devils, lies, especially in such matters as justifying her murdering of those who righteously dissent with her abominations.

This thread is valuable precisely because of this documentation.

I did. It was light on primary documentation per the Albigensians. Your second sentence is a genetic fallacy.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
A saying I have in my files, re your “genetic fallacy”: “an old prosecutorial rule—one lie, all lies” — (from a former Marine Corps intelligence officer). If Rome is your sole source of information, I rest my case.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
When the “genetic fallacy” is used to overrule valid common sense judgment — that is, if a claim is based simply or solely on its origin, rather than looking at the actual merits of the claim, then the so-called “genetic fallacy” is seen to violate its own terms.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
When the “genetic fallacy” is used to overrule valid common sense judgment — that is, if a claim is based simply or solely on its origin, rather than looking at the actual merits of the claim, then the so-called “genetic fallacy” is seen to violate its own terms.

No it isn't. It is quite simple. You said Rome is bad when I asked for primary sources from the Albigensians themselves. All of the sources linked are secondary or tertiary sources.
 

Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I hope to wind down my own part in this discussion which, initially, was simply to provide some historical resources regarding the Waldenses (or Vaudois) and the Albigenses being early proto-Protestant churches before the Reformation dissenting from Rome and living in the mountains of Europe. It has turned out that such sources do not meet with the approval of some here, but the result has been that the murderous Papal harlot's word concerning these slaughtered-by-Rome innocent believers is being taken as truth, a real travesty of justice, and of historical fact.

The PB is here, in part, for the edification of believers in various aspects of the Christian faith, and so I offer further information for the benefit of those who like to do research into these things. The history of the Christian church up through the centuries is a matter of vital importance to us, for it is not only our family, but our Lord Jesus' kingdom in its early stages.

The following are a few brief excerpts from William Cunningham's Historical Theology, Vol 1; Chapter 16, “Witnesses for the Truth During the Middle Ages”; Sect. II—Waldenses and Albigenses. I think Cunningham's reputation and work are sufficiently respected. In fact, while he reviews George Faber's, The History of the Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses, favorably, he sharply reproves him for his stance of seeking to use his History to prove that there was always a visible organized true church throughout the Dark or Middle Ages of Roman ecclesiastical dominance, which he, Cunningham, disagrees with, i.e., the continuing true church was not always "organized and visible". For those who don't have Cunningham's work in hardcopy I've given a couple of links from Monergism to access his 2-volume book online.
_______

Historical Theology, William Cunningham Vol 1; Chapter 16, “Witnesses for the Truth During the Middle Ages”; Sect. II—Waldenses and Albigenses. Excerpts:

There are very considerable difficulties in ascertaining accurately the doctrinal views of some of these alleged witnesses for the truth during the middle ages, as in most cases we have scarcely any means of knowing what they believed and taught, except from Popish writers, their enemies and persecutors; and we may be pretty confident that the men who murdered them would not scruple to calumniate them. Still there is enough to satisfy us that those individuals and bodies of men whom we have mentioned were not only zealous opponents of the Papacy, were not only innocent of the charges which Popish writers have adduced against them, but that they held, in the main, the great principles of scriptural Protestant truth, and manifested by their lives and by their deaths, — inflicted by the Church of Rome, and endured by them just because of their faithful adherence to these principles, — that they feared God, that they loved the Lord Jesus Christ, and that they enjoyed the guidance and support of the Holy Spirit. . .

Protestant writers have certainly succeeded in vindicating the Albigenses and the Waldenses of the eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth, and following centuries from the calumnies which Popish writers have adduced against them, and have shown that their doctrines, from the twelfth century downwards, were substantially those now held by the Protestant churches. They have also shown that these bodies existed at an earlier period than that to which Papists commonly ascribe their origin, and they have even made it highly probable that the Waldenses subsisted from the time of Claude, Bishop of Turin, in the ninth century. . .

The whole history of the Albigenses, and especially of the way in which they were calumniated and persecuted by the Church of Rome, irresistibly reminds us of the calumnies and persecutions directed against the primitive Christians in the second and third centuries; and the whole character and conduct of these men, as it appears incidentally and unintentionally even in the narratives of their persecutors, is fitted to impress the mind with a strong conviction, that these victims of the cruelty of Papal Rome were men of the same character and principles as the earlier victims of Pagan Rome. . .

As to [Papal writer] Bossuet's fourth position, that the Waldenses did not differ materially in doctrine from the Roman Church, but separated and remained apart from her, rather on grounds of discipline than doctrine, —and therefore cannot be appealed to by Protestants, as preserving, for any portion of time, the succession of apostolic, anti-Popish doctrine, — we have no doubt that it has been conclusively disproved; and that satisfactory evidence has been adduced that, from the Reformation back to the eleventh century, and, in all probability, without any interruption to the time of Claude of Turin in the ninth, they were decidedly opposed, upon scriptural grounds, to the leading features in the system of Popish doctrine, and held in substance the great leading doctrines of Protestantism. This, we think, has been established by Basnage and by Faber, in answer to Bossuet; and it is a fact full of interest and value, and one which must ever invest the history of the Waldenses with an importance which attaches to comparatively few departments in the. history of the church. . .

His church, though not always appearing in a visible organized form, has never been destroyed from the earth. He has always had a seed to serve Him, —placed, it may be, in great variety of outward circumstances, living some of them within the pale of very corrupt churches, but still holding His truth, and walking in His ways. And the history of the Albigenses and Waldenses, which Faber has done a great deal to illustrate, affords most important and valuable matter for developing the fulfilment of Christ’s promises, and assisting us in forming a just appreciation of the true character and tendencies of the great adversary of Christ and His cause — the apostate Church of Rome.


 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Clerk
Still there is enough to satisfy us that those individuals and bodies of men whom we have mentioned were not only zealous opponents of the Papacy, were not only innocent of the charges which Popish writers have adduced against them, but that they held, in the main, the great principles of scriptural Protestant truth,

Cunningham did not prove his case. He noted at first the difficulties in establishing the Albigensians' views. He then moves from that point to the conclusion, not supported by evidence, that they didn't differ materially from the Protestants. The evidence does not say that.
 
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