Revelation 3:5 - really blotted out or not?

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C. Matthew McMahon

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
How would you answer someone:

"Rev. 3:5 teaches that those who are written down in the Book of Life can be blotted out of the book of life..."
 
[quote:160288422a][i:160288422a]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:160288422a]
How would you answer someone:

"Rev. 3:5 teaches that those who are written down in the Book of Life can be blotted out of the book of life..." [/quote:160288422a]

With reference to 1 John: "they went out from us, but they were not of us, which is manifest because they went out from us"
 
Because while John is yet experiencing the eschaton in some half-dream half-real reverie, yet he is also still in a corruptible state, and thus receives the vision as a narrative, from the perspective we can most ascertain . . .that is .. .a human perspective . . .


This is the same as asking if God REALLY repented in Genesis.
 
'For whatever is born of God is overcoming the world' (1John 5:4). One proof that we are born of God is that we are overcoming the world. All Rev 3:5 is doing is giving us additional assurance. God does not threaten to remove anyone's name from the book. He merely says that those who overcome can be sure of salvation. However, those who think themselves Christians, but are being seduced by the world (1John 2:15-7; 2Tim 4:10) should be warned.

Blessings to all,
Steve
 
Blott out, though, would mean their names are IN THE BOOK and are THEN blotted out.

I think Luver is right...

[Edited on 10-13-2003 by webmaster]
 
So - if the book of life is the book of the covenant and the names of some are blotted out - does this mean that those who are blotted out are only a part of the "visible church" and not the "invisible church"??? Forgive my ignorance - I've just forsaken my dispensational upbringing and am fairly unacquainted with covenant theology.

Karen
 
This verse is saying that if you are His you CANNOT be blotted out. It is a verse of assurance, not a threat.

To make it say anything else, or conjecture that this is a book of the covenant is not faithful to the text. It is the book of Life and we know with certainty that if you are in it you can't be taken out.

Phillip
 
Pastor Way and Grace2You have a good point.

The verse does not say that God would blot names out of the book of life.
 
Their names are in the book and cannot be blotted out. Read the verse. There is no blotting. Blotting does not and never can happen.

This verse gives assurance that you CAN'T be blotted out. There is no blotter of death only a Book of Life! God doesn't need erasers.

Phillip

[Edited on 10-14-03 by pastorway]
 
Its funny that God would even bring up the point that he would never blot out anyone's name from the book if God never blots ANYBODY out of the book. Were the hearers actually afraid that maybe they would be blotted out of the book? Such a fear is meaningless if such a blotting never takes place.

[Edited on 10-14-2003 by luvroftheWord]
 
[quote:92fd79ada7][i:92fd79ada7]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:92fd79ada7]
Were the hearers actually afraid that maybe they would be blotted out of the book? Such a fear is meaningless if such a blotting never takes place.
[/quote:92fd79ada7]

EXACTLY!! There was fear and the fear is meaningless, hence the verse gives the answer to that fear. Don't fear, you won't be blotted out, you can't be blotted out. You have hit the nail on the head!!

Your fear is meaningless, for if you overcome you WILL NEVER BE BLOTTED OUT. Don't fear being blotted because if you are His you are in the Book and can't be taken out!!

Phillip
 
Saying "I will never sneak into your house in the night and murder you in your sleep" does not necessarily imply that I may or even will do so to someone else if I want to.
 
All this discussion and Pastor Way is right! This verse doesn't speak of blotting someone out, it speaks to the direct opposite!
 
I disagree. God does threated to cut people off, or blot them out, removing them from the book of the covenant. The problem with the idea of this being an encouragement is obvious.

You don't encourage people by threatening to destroy their place in the Covenant. Paul wasn't encouraging the gentiles in Romans 11:16-23. He was threatening them. Christ himself leaves multiple warnings in John's Gospel for the church for example early in John 15. Notice the repetition that Christ supplies emphasizing certain words over and over. He says if you abide in me you will bear forth much fruit. This is clear instruction for those seeking to make their calling and election sure. It also goes for the bretheren to not suffer the "fellowship" with the professed christian who is clearly reprobate (1 Cor 5:5).

All the warnings in the Revelation epistles are actual threats against apostasy and not encouragements.
 
I kind of agree Ian, but in this specific instance the passage says nothing about blotting out. It says you will NOT be blotted out.

I heard a sermon about God's "double book keeping" before that I am sure would add to this discussion if I could find it.
 
Adam,

I can't view this text in that way because a number of clues:

Warning. Command. Threat.

"You are dead. Wake up."

"Remember what you received and keep it and repent"

"IF you do not wake up..."

Christ makes a distinction between the reprobate and the elect in the community:

"You have a few people in Sardis who HAVE NOT soiled their garments.. THEY WILL WALK WITH ME IN WHITE ROBES for THEY are worthy"

"He who over comes will be clothed in white garments...and I will not erase HIS name"

This kind of pattern is all throughout the Revelation epistles, and throughout the scriptures warning the covenant community against apostasy.
 
I think that the idea of blotting out is consistent with other statements in scripture such as the parable to the forgiving king who forgives a debtor but then revokes his forgiveness b/c of the debtor's wrongful conduct. Of course, it is similar to Hebrews 6 and other passages as well.

I think that this can be appropached by distinguishing between ";;saving faith";; and what Calvin called ";;temporary faith.";; Calvin used that term in some of the leaving the faith passages in the NT. It also relates to what the WCF terms ";;ordinary operations of the Spirit,";; which are distinguished from saving operations. Anyway, some people can and do have temporary faith and receive benefits of the Spirit's work. Yet, as they are not elect, this faith expires and the benefits of the Spirit do them no good in the end.

This is distinguished from what the confession terms ";;saving faith,";; which involves the forgiveness of future sins, as well as past.

In any event, I think the passage about not blotting out is nonsensical without that as a possibility.

Scott
 
[quote:bd549b8f50="Scott"]I think that the idea of blotting out is consistent with other statements in scripture such as the parable to the forgiving king who forgives a debtor but then revokes his forgiveness b/c of the debtor's wrongful conduct. Of course, it is similar to Hebrews 6 and other passages as well.

I think that this can be appropached by distinguishing between "saving faith" and what Calvin called "temporary faith." Calvin used that term in some of the leaving the faith passages in the NT. It also relates to what the WCF terms "ordinary operations of the Spirit," which are distinguished from saving operations. Anyway, some people can and do have temporary faith and receive benefits of the Spirit's work. Yet, as they are not elect, this faith expires and the benefits of the Spirit do them no good in the end.

This is distinguished from what the confession terms "saving faith," which involves the forgiveness of future sins, as well as past.

In any event, I think the passage about not blotting out is nonsensical without that as a possibility.

Scott[/quote:bd549b8f50]


Verily, verily!

This is precisely the point of warnings against apostasy. Temporary faith, or presumptuous faith is not saving, though it does appear to be genuine, it turns out to be nothing but a form of faith.
 
[quote:b340ddedd1="Ianterrell"][quote:b340ddedd1="Scott"]I think that the idea of blotting out is consistent with other statements in scripture such as the parable to the forgiving king who forgives a debtor but then revokes his forgiveness b/c of the debtor's wrongful conduct. Of course, it is similar to Hebrews 6 and other passages as well.

I think that this can be appropached by distinguishing between "saving faith" and what Calvin called "temporary faith." Calvin used that term in some of the leaving the faith passages in the NT. It also relates to what the WCF terms "ordinary operations of the Spirit," which are distinguished from saving operations. Anyway, some people can and do have temporary faith and receive benefits of the Spirit's work. Yet, as they are not elect, this faith expires and the benefits of the Spirit do them no good in the end.

This is distinguished from what the confession terms "saving faith," which involves the forgiveness of future sins, as well as past.

In any event, I think the passage about not blotting out is nonsensical without that as a possibility.

Scott[/quote:b340ddedd1]


Verily, verily!

This is precisely the point of warnings against apostasy. Temporary faith, or presumptuous faith is not saving, though it does appear to be genuine, it turns out to be nothing but a form of faith.[/quote:b340ddedd1]

But Ian...were those people ever written in the book to begin with?
 
The text says that "The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life."

Well, what about the ones that do not overcome? Remember the context of the passage. Jesus is giving WARNINGS to the church. And he is warning them of things that are really possible. Hypothetical warnings are no warnings at all. When Jesus says that he will not blot out the ones that overcome, the implication is that all the ones that do not overcome (see Rev. 3:3) will be on the receiving end of the blotting.

But fear not. None of this is contrary to Calvinism. Historic Covenant Theology brings the warning passages of Scripture like this one together with the reality of sovereign grace.

I think Ian is on the right track. :thumbup:
 
Exodus 32:33

[quote:b1ac8c960f]Ex 32:33 And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.[/quote:b1ac8c960f]

What relationship does the above passage have with the passage in Revelations?

In Christ,

KC
 
I was always under the impression that the passage, like Patorway said, is confirming that we would NEVER be blotted out.

When it says that "the one who overcomes will be clothed" does that imply that there are some who will not overcome, as some here have stated? But, does that sentence not also imply that one who is not in the book can also overcome according to that logic? Which I know that we would agree with but I see that as an evident conclusion to that interpretation.
 
Paul: It might be helpful to also define salvation. People can be saved from many things and can receive common operations of the Spirit (like those described in Hebrews 6). I think you mean "saved" in the sense of what the confession defines as "justified."

Scott
 
Paul, correct.

So then, both passages, in Revelation as well as in Exodus mean something else other than just those who go to heaven. If it did, we would have a Scriptural conundrum going on between specific texts that have been quoted and the overallunderstanding of the decrees of God as well as justification.

Here are more verses:

ESV Philippians 4:3 Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

ESV Revelation 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

ESV Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

ESV Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

ESV Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

ESV Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

ESV Revelation 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Deuteronomy 29:20 "The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven.

Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the LORD And who meditate on His name.
 
Could it be that the "book of life" and the "Lamb's book of life" are different? Could it be that everyone to ever come into existence is written in the "book of life" and the unbelievers will be blotted out? The elect would be written in the "Lamb's book of life" and will never be blotted out. So in the end, the two books will contain the same names. The elect.

Take it easy on me guys if you think I'm crazy.
 
[quote:8bb78203b9="Scot"]Could it be that the "book of life" and the "Lamb's book of life" are different? Could it be that everyone to ever come into existence is written in the "book of life" and the unbelievers will be blotted out? The elect would be written in the "Lamb's book of life" and will never be blotted out. So in the end, the two books will contain the same names. The elect.

Take it easy on me guys if you think I'm crazy.[/quote:8bb78203b9]

I don't see any verses describing too books. Keep in mind that authority was given to the Lamb alone to judge (Matt 28:18, Col 2:10, Acts 10:42).
 
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