Rick Warren Speaks to Islamic Group
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Tripel
Puritan Board Senior
I haven't watched the video (due to it's length) but can someone give some background on the circumstances of his being there?
Is he supposed to share the gospel wherever he goes?
Tripel
Puritan Board Senior
Does that just go for Rick Warren, or does that go for all Christians? If I go to my local Jewish community center to raise support for a pro-life cause, am I supposed to use the time to talk about Jesus?
DonP
Puritan Board Junior
Hmmm... That is kind of like like asking, is a doctor supposed to be a doctor wherever he goes?
If someone is needing a doctor and he does not help it can even be a crime.
Sadly he also can be prosecuted if he messes up.
But more importantly, you may not have to share the gospel wherever you go, though we are commanded to be prepared to give answer, but he is a Minister of the Gospel
I think he is always to be representing Christ where he goes in an official way and with the gospel.
Ask yourself. Can you see Jesus calling the Pharisees or the Romans to get together and start a feeding party for the poor with the Him?
And besides, why doesn't he get together with other Christian groups to do this? We have a hard enough time getting the Presbyterians of different denoms to work together or the baptists and the Presbyterians.
Wouldn't that make more sense to try to bridge these or make some unity here?
Tripel
Puritan Board Senior
No it's not. I'm not suggesting he has to stop being a Christian. I'm talking about sharing the gospel. Are Christians required to share the gospel whenever they meet with people or get up in front of an audience?
Again, I'm not suggesting he shouldn't represent Christ. And yes, his being a minister is important, but I still don't think that necessitates his preaching the gospel at every event.
DonP
Puritan Board Junior
I already said there is a difference between all Christians and a Minister of the Gospel
So you said he is to always be representing Christ. What do you think Christ would say if He got a chance to be in front of a bunch of Moslems? Or Paul, or Peter?
Hey guys we are all children of God, lets get together and feed some poor people?
Tripel
Puritan Board Senior
I'd prefer we not get into hypotheticals regarding what Jesus would do and instead address the question at hand: Are Christians (or ministers specifically) supposed to share gospel any time they meet with people or speak in front of a group?
John Weathersby
Puritan Board Freshman
Paul,
The gospel is what saves, not our personality or friendship. Thus, why would we befriend the lost OVER giving the gospel. Is this the biblical example. Does Paul go somewhere else and start a kumbaya circle?
GOSPEL, always.
I don't believe that Christian congregations and Muslim congregations should get together to do good works. Warren should have said that Islam is a false religion and that Christian churches should not be cooperating with Muslim churches to do good works.
Some of the comments on this thread go way over the line. Even if Rick Warren was our enemy he would deserve much more charity concerning his character and intellectual acumen. Criticize his theology all you want but cease with the insults.
Reformed Thomist
Puritan Board Sophomore
That's the ticket. Lure the Moslems with fancy speech about Abrahamic solidarity and shared social values so that they have their guard down, and then convert the lot of them when they least expect it!
dr_parsley
Puritan Board Freshman
You might like to consider rephrasing that - Christ does indeed have a such a chance continually.
You might also like to consider why Warren had that opportunity (and will have lots of others) while you and I don't. If he's able to take one good opportunity out of the hundred he has, isn't that better than us taking zero out of the zero we have? I'd love to see people being more charitable to a brother doing his best.
dr_parsley
Puritan Board Freshman
John,
I posted an example earlier but deleted it because I reconsidered the amount of detail I gave. Let me try again in brief and, if you'll understand me, only allude to the gospel specific work. I work with hundreds of pastors in Zululand, trying to build them up, strengthen their churches. Now your average pastor in Zululand has one most important concern - keeping his congregation, because his livelihood is likely to be coming from tithes. When someone comes and asks this average pastor, "How many members does your church have?" He will look at you with suspicious eyes because he immediately suspects you want to steal them and everything you say after that will be under suspicion. This typical pastor cannot allow himself learn from you. If he were seen to learn from you, then his congregation would be led to think you have more authority than he does and your (suspected) task of stealing his members will be much easier and he's not going to take that risk. So you can talk to this pastor, saying all the right things, but there's a very good chance he's not listening to the meaning of the words you say; he is thinking, "Where's this guy's angle to steal my members?"
Many missionaries come in from outside and are a complete waste of time, because they never get beyond the pastors' thinking, "What's this guy's angle?" and "Where's an angle for me to make some money out of this stupid foreigner?" Now I think having said that, if some of these pastors find this post, I don't think they'll be upset - all this is well known. I didn't make this mistake like others have and so my ministry was not killed straight off the bat. My experience was that it took a whole year of low level dialogue and visibility and most importantly the communication of motivation to get pastors to stop being suspicious. Then, and only then, could we do training and build up the church. NOW I can say whatever I want from the bible and I could have hundreds of pastors genuinely listening. Before, not a single one would have listened. I pray that God gives me wisdom in how to use this opportunity that He has provided, but I'm not going to go off half cocked in my own strength.
I was converted through reading the bible alone so I understand more (I think) than most that the Word is sufficient to work powerfully - but if the Word is blocked at the first gate by ears closed by misunderstanding and suspicion, then the Word isn't even heard. You can speak but you are speaking to yourself.
No-one is talking about sacrificing the gospel to make friends. It's only people on here who seem to have guessed that's what's going on. I certainly don't agree with everything about Rick Warren, but I respect his challenge to us all to think strategically in our contexts. To reject strategic action in favour of all-out assault will lose most battles. Fortunately, God is in control of the war.
Semper Fidelis said:
I'm so glad someone else is saying this. I assumed that PB would be moderated against personal abuse of living people? I'm still learning the ropes here, but I have to confess that I'll find it difficult to be a member of a group where people are allowed to insult brothers. The uncharitableness I've seen on this thread alone is shocking to me and in my first two weeks here there seem to have been innumerable threads of the form "Look at this heretic pseudo Christian over there... What do you say about that?" That doesn't build up anyone, it only gives opportunities for people to demonstrate fruits of the flesh. It's a pity because there are also some very good threads.
WHY did RW have that opportunity?
The only thing that I can think of is that he's got two qualities that qualify him:
1.) He's very much in the spotlight and so he "represents American Christianity"
2.) He's not offensive.
Had RW had the reputation for telling it like it is (in love of course) then I'm sure he wouldn't have gotten the nod.
As for myself, I'd rather tell the truth in love and not be called to speak at the Islamic Convention, than to compromise the message that I've been entrusted with and have that opportunity.
This kind of thing happens on a "laymans" level every day....get invited to preach at the local Christian street fair, be too blunt about the truth....not get invite back...
-----Added 7/14/2009 at 08:54:31 EST-----
Dr. Parsley,
Isn't that a false "either / or" choice? Isn't there a 3rd choice at least?
1.) Roll over and never speak the truth.
2.) All out assault
3.) Speaking the truth in love.
I would say that no matter what the results; God is glorified when HIS WORDS are proclaimed...forget numbers, response, perceived like or dislike of the message, the aim is NOT numbers, or reception, but the glorification of God,...true?
In that case, RW refused to glorify God hundreds of times to he could have one shot one day of glorifying God...
that doesn't make sense to me.
John Weathersby
Puritan Board Freshman
Paul, let me start by saying, I know I come at you with some frequency on these boards; I do so knowing that Iron sharpens Iron (Prov 27:17). This is why I am on these boards to learn, to be sharpened, and to be used as an instrument by the Lord to aid in sharpening of others. This said, I recognize you as a brother in the Lord and Love you because of that, further, you work as a missionary, which gives you a spot (a soft one) in my heart and in my prayers! I like Pipers conviction over the great commission leaving us with three choices, “Go, Send, or Disobey”, I send and encourage; this said, thank you for the work you do and let me know please how I can pray specifically for you. Further, we’ve disagreed on the boards and you approached me in love (ticked off) but in love in accord with Matthew 18, praise God for that, we (Christians don’t do that enough) All that said…
I understand what you example regarding the steeling congregants in your example above, I recognize this as a difficult situation. I would say the pastors SHOULD have regenerated hearts and should be able to receive a rebuke (Prov 17:10) to not divide among the Church (1 Cor 3:2-8).
As I have said previously scripture, scripture, scripture. Is this the scriptural model of the church, to be in competition for congregants or is this of the flesh, if we trust regeneration and that the Holy spirit is saving and convicting of sin righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) can we expect that some cultural changes and understandings of how the world works will change within cultures? What is the purpose of the church, support the pastor or glorify the Lord? Don’t get me wrong, a workman is worthy of his wage (1 Tim 5:17/18, 1 Cor 9:14), however does this behavior glorify the Lord.
You say “if the Word is blocked at the first gate by ears closed by misunderstanding and suspicion”; the Word we’re talking about is Gods word, not yours God saves by his word (Rom 1:16), further, Romans 10:17 clarifies that our faith comes by hearing, and 1 Pet 1:23-25 makes clear that which we must hear is the Word of God. Further, the example given by Jesus in John 6, is indispensable, Jesus says in John 6:26 through John 6:69, (noting that disciples turn and leave him in John 6:66), Jesus was showing the disciples that people CANNOT come to him unless the father brings them, it’s not the work of those who will come to him; (John 6:27, 6:29, 6:37, 6:40, 6:44, 6:65) my point in this is that we are called to preach the Gospel, and those whom the Father has predestined are his sheep and will hear his voice (John 10:27).
Thus, when an evangelical Christian has the ear of a room full of Muslim people he is to give the Gospel, those that are his sheep will hear his voice and WILL be saved, unless it was not appointed for that time, and they will be saved when some other faithful saint/servant preaches the Gospel. Why would we make them think that we can do good works together, how does this fit with Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:12? Again, I don’t claim to have all the answers, but I do claim scripture does, and I see you giving your opinion again without scriptural backing, which I believe is a mistake.
I’m not saying we should be fatalistic, however I AM saying that the Gospel is offensive, no surprise we were each hostile to it at some point ( I see that in my 3 year old who doesn’t like to be told that he is a sinner) 1 Cor 1:18 says “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God”; in good company I profess”. I would appreciate scriptural support be provided which shows the gospel being brought in a ‘friendship evangelism’ way from scriptures. I don’t see that the bible calls for strategic alliance, it calls for Gospel preaching, that’s it. The conversion is God’s work, not our keen ability to convince and befriend, I hope this is an encouragement to you! God is sovereign and all knowing, and Jesus “upholds the universe by the word of his power” he transcends our limitations having been given all power (Matt 28:18).
dr_parsley
Puritan Board Freshman
We have different perspectives because we're different people in different places and that's all to the good if we share it respectfully and both listen carefully, which I hope we're doing.
I will send a PM about this.
I can see where you're coming from and I would even say that as a general rule of life and witness you've got it absolutely right. I know I often fail on being sufficiently straightforward in giving the gospel, so it's a good reminder.
But I do say that some contexts and situations are just the same as if someone has their ears stopped up physically - they can't hear your words or the Word because of their prior assumptions. I also think that there are pragmatic exceptions where one might not want to do harm to the cause of the gospel by being too blunt. For example, giving the gospel on film may have consequences for those Muslims when they return to their mosques. I'll ask again, do we know that he doesn't give the gospel in less public settings? I have absolutely no idea and I wouldn't want to criticise him until I did know. I'd be amazed if Warren hasn't got an accountability team who would be raising such things, so it seems strange for us to do so.
I'm very sensitive to criticising another servant of our mutual Master. In a secular work setting I'd go to the person first, then their boss; I wouldn't criticise them amongst their colleagues. How much more important then is it to do criticism correctly within the grace-filled body of Christ. It fills me with horror to criticise another brother without being in possession of all the facts. I can only think, "what would my Master say at my behaviour?"
Didn't Peter get a pretty stinging rebuke from Paul?
Didn't Paul do a lot of rebuking of believers himself?
I thank God for the times that believers have had the guts to tell me the unvarnished truth...it stung, but they were right and it was the only thing that got through my thick skull...
WarrenInSC
Puritan Board Freshman
You'd be surprised how close to home working "with false religions to do good works" is coming in the PCA. Check out The Aquila Report:
Missional: The Trojan Horse in My Church
dr_parsley
Puritan Board Freshman
Didn't Peter get a pretty stinging rebuke from Paul?
Didn't Paul do a lot of rebuking of believers himself?
I thank God for the times that believers have had the guts to tell me the unvarnished truth...it stung, but they were right and it was the only thing that got through my thick skull...
Absolutely! If you read what I wrote, I said you should go to the brother directly and it should go without saying that you should do it with respect, humility and a willingness to be shown how you had the wrong end of the stick.
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