Rock Music - Let's Debate: Evil or Neutral?

Discussion in 'The Pilgrims Progress' started by Dieter Schneider, Apr 12, 2007.

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  1. Dieter Schneider

    Dieter Schneider Puritan Board Sophomore

    I think that only geologists should listen to rock!:blah:
     
  2. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    I Agree.... :amen:


    Rock music is evil music, it will never enter into my household... But Geologist should listen to the rocks...... :)

    Michael

     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2007
  3. Dieter Schneider

    Dieter Schneider Puritan Board Sophomore

    I am encouraged by your stance! Phil.4:8 springs to mind!
     
  4. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    I agree, Phil 4:8 also rings to mind.....

    I am a Staunch believer of biblical holiness in music even outside of the church. In my courtship days with my wife she learned that I listen to such people as Michael W. Smith and other light rockish so-called christian music.. I did not listen to it as much as Classical but I did partake of it... She did not try to debate me, or endless conservations about it or argue about it, she believed it was not her place, but she did hand me a book and asked me to read it and listen to it fairly.. The book was called "The Battle of Christian music" by Tim Fisher. I read it and it convinced me. She was relieved, she told me later she would have had to give second thoughts to our courtship.

    Others books I have read and approve of are:

    Music in the Balance
    Measuring the Music
    Holy Spirit, Holy Music
    Preface to the Geneva Psalter by Calvin
    Reforming Worship/ sections on Tunes and Melodies

    Michael

     
  5. blhowes

    blhowes Puritan Board Professor

    In a nutshell, why is rock music evil? the lyrics? the beat?

    Thoughts about "soft rock"? Where do you draw the line as far as what you'll listen to and what you won't listen to?
     
  6. kvanlaan

    kvanlaan Puritan Board Doctor

    Is it from God? (I'd have to answer a resounding NO.)

    If we say it is not but we can still listen to it under the umbrella of Christian liberty, we must remember that not all things lawful are beneficial.

    Why is it evil? It is without God. The inspiration for these songs are not of Him, so from where do they come?

    PS - I'm not sure if I'm still taking part in hijacking this thread or not...:doh:
     
  7. LifeInReturn

    LifeInReturn Puritan Board Freshman

    I am always surprised to hear people paint a genre of music as 'evil'. God created things; Satan perverts them. There is nothing in the Bible that declares a certain genre as better or holier so why do mere humans do it ?

    To be Holy is to be set apart. One of the definitions of HOLY is -- dedicated or devoted to the service of God... We are foul humans and we're redeemed and bearing fruit for Him, so music can do the same -- be it Christian rock, praise and worship, rap, etc. But why do we declare that it's evil and not good when there are no Scriptures that support that ?

    As I said, it always surprises me. Satan is given more credit than he deserves. I hear it all the time... people saying that Christian rap / Christian rock are wrong... but praise and worship is 'okay'.... :\

    At any rate, what kind of resources are you looking for ???
     
  8. kvanlaan

    kvanlaan Puritan Board Doctor

    Sorry, secular rock music is my real big one. Not entirely sure about all kinds of Christian rock yet... For instance, where would something like Hillsong fit in? Rock, praise? What?
     
  9. jolivetti

    jolivetti Puritan Board Freshman

    Scriptures do not speak to style of music; any arguments to prove the holiness or wickedness of a certain style based on Scripture are forced to do some creative exegesis.

    What resources I've ever seen on the issue mostly fall into an alarmist, fundamentalist category. My advice for households: Use your Christian liberty and your Christian wisdom. Look at the content of the music and the quality of the music.

    ...as for me and my house, we will listen to SRV and Tom Petty. And psalm singing.
     
  10. blhowes

    blhowes Puritan Board Professor

    ...BTW, I didn't read the thread title close enough, and didn't notice the words "no debate please". I'll bow out of any further discussions (debate) if I'm going against the intent of the thread.

    Just FYI, I'm actually not trying to debate but trying to understand where you're coming from and why you take the stand you do (and to see if that stand makes sense to me). I don't have any reason to defend rock music, I don't really listen to that much of it, or any other genre of music for that matter, on more than an occasional basis. When I hear most of the hard rock stuff, with all the screaming guitars and wildness, I appreciate the skill that goes into it, but I don't hear anything that appeals to me - it actually irritates me to listen to it. Not so much because I think its evil, rather because I just don't like the sound of it. Give me a quiet trickling stream to listen to anyday.
     
  11. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    Usually when the style or beat is attacked it is done so by implying that the artist's demonic association gives him the power to somehow infuse the music with a demonic element. They will say that the music has been 'demonized' by the composer.

    This is the usual complaint toward New Age Music, that the composer is a worshipper of demons and knows how to use beats and notes that will lull the consciousness of the listener into a 'neutral state' similar to hypnosis. However, there is no neutral state and this leaves the listener open to demonic oppression or possession. These critics will also tell how subliminal undertones and overtones can be layered into the music that transmit demonic messages.

    They will back up this theory by reminding people that music makes you feel good, bad, relaxed, nervous because it links with your unconscious. I've heard theories that the beat should be similar to your heartbeat to relax but that rock musicians under demonic influence will force the rhythm to speed up you heart and this is very bad for your health.

    When I was a long haired teen at bible camp they told us that "these long haired hippie rock and rollers have brought these driving beats and rhythms right out of the demonic jungles of Africa". Then they suggested we all go home and burn all our rock and roll albums in a big bonfire in our back yard.

    There's tons of pseudo-science that has been used to verify all these claims. I'm not going to bother to look for it, it's embarrassing and makes Christians look like a bunch of pinch-nosed ignorant hayseeds.

    Our battle is not against the rock music genre. Good music is good music. But I will respect your convictions, whatever they are, as you honor Christ by what you choose to listen to or not listen to. As I have always said, if you're going to have opinion make sure it's a strong one and be ready to give a defense from scripture.
     
  12. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    Quote From Reforming Worship:

    A narrow biblicist might object that the Bible says nothing about this alleged power of music or about the suitablility of one kind of music over another. Calvin and his tribe might respond that this is a matter of wisdom.

    The Bible says nothing about the relative properties of rocks, sand, and buildings, yet Jesus expects us to be wise about the nature of things and build accordingly (Matt 7:24-27). The Bible says nothing about the relative properties of wine and wineskins, yet Jesus expects that we should be shrewd enough observers of the nature of things to know not to put new wine into old wineskins (9:16-17). The essence of biblical wisdom is this understanding of the nature of things: whether one is a farmer (Prov. 10:5-6; 12:11), sheepherder (27:23), orchardist (27:18), a person walking down the street (7:6-23), or an attenddant of the king (23:1-2, 25:6-7), one is to carefully discern the nature of people, things, and circumstances and bring one's life into conformity with the realities uncovered. Consequently the wise person will pay attention to the relative properties of music and human anture ans draw correct conclusions about its power to influence and corrupt. It has not been wise of evangelicals to ignore the issues raised by tunes, words, and tunes and words in combination. Regrettablym those who raise concerns are often branded as elitist, legalist, and narrow-minded fundalmentalists and ignored.

    One might summarized the commonly noted properties of music as follows:

    1. Music has the power to move and express the emotions. Even David was able to soothe Saul's troubled spirit with his harp (1 Sam. 16:23), so there is music that saddens, gladdens, arouses a martial spirit, entices lust, readies for sleep, and so on. Music may both arouse the whole range of human emotions and provide a vehicle for expressing them when they are already present.
    2. Music has the power to stimulate the memory. As anybody who learned the ABC song knows, music is a great aid to the memory.
    3. Music has the power to discipline or corrupt the soul. This at least is the argument of the philosophers and theologians. Good music - that which consist of ennobling lyrics and moderate tunes - edifies and disciplines the soul. Bad music - that which consists of unworthy lyrics and tunes - inflames the passions, breaks down restraint, and corrupts the soul.

    The key word with regard to tunes is "appropriate." Can this ever be anything other than a subjective judgment, a personal opinion, or preference? Indeed it can be and must be. The Scriptures regularly ask us to make judgments on the basis of what is proper or fitting. This includes such things as hair length (1 Cor. 11:14), speech (Titus 2:1), etc. Most of our decisions in life are wisdom issues:

    What to say or not say
    What it means to lvoe my neighbor in a given situation
    What it means to live with my spouse in an understanding way
    What it means to practice wise stewardship
    What it means to let my mind dwell on things that are excellent and lovely (Phil 4:8)

    In each of these cases wise judgments must be made. Miss the mark, and one falls into sin. Say something unseemly or unkind, fail to love or be understanding, or make the most of my time ore resources (Eph. 5:15-16), or become absorbed with the unlovely, the unworthy, and the mediocre, and I fall short of the will of God.

    This leads to the following principles:

    1. The tunes should be well crafted (Ps 33:3), blending melody, harmony, and rhythm in balanced proportions.

    2. The tunes should be lovely (Phil 4:8), exhibiting true beauty by reflecting the beauty of God (Pss. 27:4, 50:2, 96:6)

    For Worship this extends: (I will summarize them, since this is about general music and not worship music per se.

    3. Tunes should be universal in their appeal, avoiding narrow generational or cultural classification.

    4. Tunes should be emotionally suited to the words.

    5. Tunes should be singable.

    End of Quote from Reforming Worship


    Music is powerful and can be lustful and sensual in the case of Rock music. Rock music is nothing more then Body Sex renacted. For this purpose alone it should be avoided but there is so much more. The above quote, plus the history of Rock and Roll and the health (True Science) should all steer one away from Rock music.

    Take Little Richard, “ My true belief about Rock ‘n’ Roll- and there have been a lot of phrased attributed to me over the years- is this: I believe this kind of music is demonic… A lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo, from the voodoo drums. If you study music in rhythms, like I have, you’ll see that is true…” The Life and Times of Little Richard by Charles White, pp 197.

    How about quotes from Reason to Rock @ www.reasontorock.com:

    The theme of rock music, as I will show, is liberation: release from constraints of every kind. In a way, then, rock is positioned precisely between the blues and jazz. Blues captures the state of oppression, while jazz expresses the opposite state of freedom. Rock does not express a fixed state at all, but captures the transition, the movement from one state to another, the act of throwing off the chains.

    Liberation was not just an implicit theme in rock: it was an overt goal and sacred mission of much of the music. Bruce Springsteen talks about this often, as in this 2003 interview with ABC News.


    For me the greatest pop music was music of liberation: Bob Marley, Bob Dylan, Elvis Presley, James Brown, Public Enemy, the Clash, the Sex Pistols. Those were pop groups that liberated an enormous amount of people to be who they are. (Springsteen 2003)

    Another great quotation often attributed to Springsteen is that “Elvis Presley liberated our bodies, and Bob Dylan liberated our minds.” This expresses the great power of rock music: by combining rhythms and sounds that make you want to move, with lyrics and vocals that make you think and feel, the best rock music liberates its listeners from programmed responses and helps them uncover their deeper, more authentic and more integrated selves.

    End of Quote

    As for the Health, I will post that into a new post since this one is getting too long.....

    Michael
     
  13. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    Health Reasons

    Taken from an article last year on MSNBC:

    Research studies on effects of music on plants and animals

    The "Mozart Effect"

    Much of the current research in music therapy focuses on proving that music has measurable physiological and psychological effects. Such effects are not difficult to find or to measure, and are revealed by studies of human, animal, and plant behavior, EEG recordings, hormone assays, and cellular growth patterns. Frequently these results have been misinterpreted and exaggerated by the popular media and by marketing people, which is unfortunate, since the documented effects are remarkable in themselves. The so-called "Mozart Effect" is one such phenomenon that has resulted in much confusion.

    The "Mozart Effect" is based on research by Frances Rauscher et al., who determined that listening to 10 minutes of Mozart's "Sonata for Two Pianos in D Major" briefly increased scores 48% (relative to control groups) on the paper-folding task, a component of the Stanford-Binet intelligence test that measures spatio-temporal reasoning abilities. [3a, 3b] Moreover, the effects were transient, lasting only about 10 minutes, and performance on non-spatial reasoning tasks was unaffected. Such results seem to be unique to the music of Mozart, whereas music not as highly structured did not have measureable effects. Other researchers have demonstrated that compositions of other classical composers such as J.S. Bach show similar benefits.

    Listening to a few minutes of Mozart does not permanently make one smarter; however, the results of Rauscher's study, modest though they may seem, are profound. If such seemingly benign stimuli affect even momentary intelligence, one might wonder whether people exposed to specific types of music and sounds over extended periods would experience proportionately greater effects, both positive and negative.
    Using Baroque music to enhance learning a new language

    Bulgarian psychologist George Lozanov found that playing Baroque instrumental music (such as that of Handel and J.S. Bach) in the background while teaching foreign language vocabulary greatly increased student's speed of learning and degree of memory retention. Music with a metre close to 60 beats per minute was found to be most effective; that this rate closely matches that of a relaxed pulse is thought to be significant. (Handel supposedly composed his famous "Water Music" at the request of King George I of England to aid him with his poor memory; whether the music helped or not is undetermined.) [4a, 4b]

    Harmful effects of rock music on neuronal branching patterns in mice

    Physicist Harvey Bird and neurobiologist Gervasia Schreckenberg subjected different groups of mice to the sound of traditional voodoo drumming, to Strauss waltzes, and to silence, and then tested each group's ability to navigate through a maze to get food. [5a, 5b] All music was played continuously at low volumes to eliminate possible behavioral effects from loud sounds generally. The groups that were subjected to either silence or Strauss waltzes had no problem learning the maze, with the Strauss waltz group having a slight edge in performance. However, the voodoo group performed progressively worse over the period of time they were exposed to the music and eventually became so disoriented that they became unable to complete the maze at all. These mice were also hyperactive and aggressive, often engaging in cannibalistic behavior.

    On dissection of the brains of these mice, highly abnormal neuronal growth patterns were found in the hippocampus region, with excessive dendritic branches growing out in all directions yet making few connections to other neurons; the hippocampus region is known to be important in learning and memory formation. Significant increases in messenger RNA, which is involved in memory formation, were also found. This latter effect probably corresponds to the increase in dendritic branching, as if the brains were persistently attempting to make sense out the sound stimulus, but could not.

    A number of commentators have interpreted these findings to condemn all forms of rock music; while this does not necessarily follow logically from the Bird and Schreckenberg results, the Retallack experiments (see section 2.5, below) on plants at least suggests that many types of rock music may be harmful to human health. Some researchers and health professionals have suggested that the electronic distortion used by many rock bands might be a factor, in addition to the common use of anapestic rhythms (persistently syncopated, with two short beats, a long beat, then a pause).

    Effect of music on cortisol levels in humans

    Different types of music may significantly affect blood cortisol levels. Cortisol and adrenaline are two "stress" hormones that are secreted by the adrenal glands in response to ACTH. In one experiment, patients who had just been informed of their need for imminent surgery, were tested for blood cortisol concentrations after listening to a calming piece of music, chosen by each patient in consultation with a music therapist; cortisol levels were reduced by 50% compared with the control group that did not listen to any music. [6] In another experiment, this time with healthy people, similar results were obtained by playing sitar music by Ravi Shankar, whereas a waltz by Johann Strauss and a rhythmically irregular, somewhat discordant piece by contemporary composer W.H. Henze had no effect.

    Elevated cortisol levels are normal and desirable in certain circumstances, including high-intensity exercise. Trained runners are able to induce high levels of cortisol quickly without the aid of energizing musical accompaniment, but it was found that such music could aid untrained runners in producing such levels faster. Energizing music with a fast tempo had this effect, but slow, calming music did not, as might be expected. Perhaps sports team managers have always known this, thus the popularity of strident tunes played by brass bands before and during games to whip both players and spectators into a frenzy. One also might wonder whether certain types of agitating music, such as rock or heavy metal may induce excessive cortisol over extended periods of time and become addictive, in a similar manner to the adrenal rush one gets from coffee.

    Music and its effects on plant growth

    Plants have been shown to significantly increase their rate of growth when stimulated by specific sound frequencies. In the 1950's, Indian botanist T.C. Singh observed under a microscope the protoplasm streaming in an Asian aquatic plant, which normally increases at sunrise, and discovered that such streaming could be induced at other times of the day by activating an electrically driven tuning fork. He then experimented with recorded South Indian violin music played to a wide variety of plants, with frequencies of the fundamental tones in the 100 to 600 Hz range; significantly increased growth rates resulted. [7] About the same time, a Canadian named Eugene Canby began subjecting test plots of wheat to recordings of violin sonatas by J.S. Bach, and found that yields increased by 66%. Other tests in Russia, the U.S., and Canada with ultrasonic frequencies yielded similar increases in the growth rates of other plant species.

    Various researchers then determined that the range of frequencies around 5000 Hz were especially potent in stimulating plant growth. During the 1960's, researcher Dorothy Retallack determined that these frequencies were best administered in the form of classical music (compositions of J.S. Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, and other European 18th and 19th century composers; traditional North Indian music performed on sitar and tabla), played intermittently for several hours per day. [8a, 8b] A Minnesota plant breeder named Dan Carlson collaborated with a music teacher named Michael Holtz to create an audio tape with a combination of frequencies centered about the 5000 Hz range, which Holtz immediately recognized as being very similar to the sound of a bird chorus at dawn. Carlson then used this music to induce record-breaking growth rates in Purple Passion vine plants. [7]

    Retallack also experimented with various types of rock music to see what effects they would have on plant growth. Plants "listening" to selections from Led Zeppelin, Vanilla Fudge, and Jimi Hendrix became stunted or gangly, with long stems and sparse leaf growth, some bending away from the sound source; after 16 days, most of these plants died.

    Retallack also found that the discordant music of 20th century composers Arnold Schönberg and Anton von Webern also caused plants to atrophy, but not to the degree of the rock music. Schönberg is considered to be the father of 12-tone music, characterized by a total "freedom" from harmonic contraints, wherein all 12 tones of the western musical scale are ideally considered to be of equal weight and value. Twelve-tone principles of composition were eagerly embraced by avant garde faculty at music schools during the early 20th century, and over the following decades began to appear in popular music, and in background music for television and radio programs. The 12-tone style is what gives music for horror and suspense films its particular capacity to shock and terrorize.

    The key frequency range for inducing the relaxation response

    A French ear specialist named Alfred Tomatis confirmed that the same frequencies and musical styles Retallack demonstrated to be beneficial for plants were also beneficial for humans. [2b] Tomatis found that the types of music most likely to promote EEG, or brainwave, patterns correlated with relaxation of muscle tension and calm attentiveness were the same types of Baroque and classical compositions determined by Retallack to be optimal for plants, especially those recordings rich in stringed instruments, such as violin, viola, and cello. Specifically, the frequency range from 5000 to 8000 Hz seemed to promote alpha-band brainwaves the fastest; of all the musical instruments, stringed instruments are richest in these higher frequencies.

    End of Quote


    There is more, but I would have to backlog my saved articles cds to find them.. There was one in which some youth died after a rock concert due to their lungs being punctured due to the level of volume and the beat, and one who was in their car when it happened.
     
  14. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    Plato said "Give me the music of the nation, and I care not who makes it's laws"

    Michael
     
  15. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    I will be the first to teach that if you are going to write music to contain a theological message, make sure the style is right to carry the weight of the message.

    Handel's Messiah is, for me, the ultimate representation of Christian music. It gives a clear presentation of the gospel and the music carries the weight of the message perfectly.

    So musical style is important but the question of this post is this:

    are there resources that demonstrate that the genre/style of rock music is inherently wrong or evil?

    inherent - existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute
     
  16. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    Would you say that adultery with lustfulness and even the subcategory p0rnography is evil?

    Rock music in my studies as led me to believe that Rock music is sensual erotic sound p0rnography and mimmicks that body movements of sexual encounter that should be left to the bedroom of a husband and wife.

    As for resources.. The books I mentioned in the previous thread that was carried over to this thread contains all that and more... I could not quote entires books here (My hands would hurt) and I would leave out to much to leave it short... Those books are the best, in the addition to I can add one more to the list.. As for online resources, I am unsure.

    As for recap of book titles:

    Battle for Christian Music by Fisher
    Music in the Balance by Garlock
    Holy Spirit, Holy Music
    Measuring the Music by Mack...(sp)
    Preface to Geneva Psalter by Calvin
    Reforming Worship by Ryken
    Why I left the Contemporary Christian Movement


    Michael


     
  17. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    I agree Michael that rock and rap artists have breathed new life into the p*rn industry. It breaks my heart and angers me to no end. But this has happened because deviants and perverts have used the medium to propagate their lusts and try to validate their abhorrent behavior. It's sick, it's dangerous. There is an ocean of filth within the rock and rap industry.

    I do not see where the music itself is inherently wrong. Let's keep looking for some freebie sources for brother Mark. Michael I appreciate your passion and diligence in clearly sharing your convictions on this issue.
     
  18. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    :handshake:

    But I would also have to say that this is inherent in this music itself. Just look at some of the quotes from even the earliest rock stars who made rock and roll a genre... The Synopiated beat that is also inherent in the system drives lustifulness and spurns the mind into wrong thoughts...

    Just feel how the music drives you.. Does your heart race, does your foot tap or your hands shake... Do you almost go trance... Does your body want to move. Do you want to shake your hips like presley. Do you just want to dance when you hear the music. If any or just one of these are true then be warned..... Be honest.... I tell you when I use to listen to Michael W. Smith in the car I would be driving pretty fast and pushing my foot harder on the gas... It drove me... I could easily be going 20 or 30 mph beyond the speed limit... I would almost trance out with it...... It is inherent....

    How about praise and worship? Well, look at those who sing those songs in church up at the stage... What are they doing... Body motions that seem to me to mimmick erotic movement.. What about their hands and mouths... They seem to almost be having sex with the microphone.. Hands gripped tightly around the microphone and they almost are eating the microphone with their lips. Like they are giving it a passioniate kiss.... To a song with Christian lyrics... :candle:

    How about the congregation, what are they doing... I went to my cousin's church once with praise and worship and the row in front of me and my wife was bouncing there rumps in sync doing the wave uncousciously to the beat of the music...

    It can not be denied.... The sound is p0rnography in and of itself..... and spurs the passions.... Plus the link to voodoo makes it even more satanic...

    I have seen RPW churches go down fast and hard and even one generation when the congragation is allowed in the name of Christian liberty to listen to any genre of music outside of the church. When it is not even taught in the pulpit.. It is gut wrenching.. One church we were in was strong in the RPW but allowed the youth to listen to Christian rock and such outside the church. We thought to ourselves, well it is a great church and this will affect them maybe in 2 or 3 generations and so we stayed... HOW WRONG we were... It was less then 1 generation.. How shocked we were.. It affect the pulpit and the pastors.. They started to even teach the reverse. That church is no longer RPW, and is becoming close Emgerent Post modern and many problems in many areas.

    But peace with you brother :handshake: ..
    Michael


     
  19. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    Michael, you are speaking of what goes on in worship and I can't agree with you more. I've seen the same things. I've been in music groups, solo entertainer, I've written musicals, I've performed in many churches and venues. Let's step away from worship and the RPW.

    It seems like you're saying that rock music is wrong because it makes you want to move. So are you also saying that dancing is a sin?

    I had to break up a porch made of thick concrete a few years ago. It would have been a near impossible task but using a 20lb sledge and Megadeth's Rust In Peace I crushed that porch like superman. Yes it pumped my adrenaline and made me move - that was the point.

    Oh, oh, I think we might have crossed the point and we are debating. Sorry Mark, hopefully a little debating will stimulate those free resources we are looking for. :D
     
  20. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    I have been talking in general about music. But I used an example of Worship of what happens outside the church will in time affect the church and the worship in the church.

    The question should be "What kind of Move". Is dancing wrong, Yes and No. Is the dancing erotic in the case of Rock music, moving to stimulated sex or is it other kinds of dancing.. I would put forward to dance with Rock music is wrong and sexual. I am not against all dancing, some in my wife's family would be. But I also would agree that dancing should not between unmarried people.

    The problems with Rock music is, it's beginning origin in satanism, it's rebellion, the beat, the passions and lustifulness, the erotic nature, to sum it up it's p0rnography.

    And like Plato said, if you write the music and draw people do it, it does not matter about the laws of the lands or who is the president you will have full rebellion.

    Michael


     
  21. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    Well, Michael I know where you're coming from and God bless you for putting in so much thought to protect your family and church.

    I'm only seeing you making a list of assertions without logical support. Rock music has it's origins in Satanism is a non sequitur.

    Let's lay aside our debate and try and find some supporting resources from brother Mark.
     
  22. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    I did mention this in a previous post...


    Previous quote from Thunaer:

    Take Little Richard, “ My true belief about Rock ‘n’ Roll- and there have been a lot of phrased attributed to me over the years- is this: I believe this kind of music is demonic… A lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo, from the voodoo drums. If you study music in rhythms, like I have, you’ll see that is true…” The Life and Times of Little Richard by Charles White, pp 197.

    End of Quote

    Michael
     
  23. bradofshaw

    bradofshaw Puritan Board Freshman

    Wisdom from the World of Rock Thread

    I'd encourage anyone thinking through this topic to be careful not to view rock music as either musically or lyrically monolithic. A cursory listening of the range of musicians making "rock" music over the last 50 years or so will demonstrate that you can't really define rock as a distinct beat, style, or sound. Likewise, if you read through the link above, you will see that lyrically, rock touches on much more than sex, drugs, and rebellion.

    I would argue though, that the significance to rock music is that it is the chosen medium of a generation of artists who have a lot to say about the state of our culture, both for good and bad. There are a lot of significant statements in rock music that we shouldn't just dismiss off hand. It is the literature of our generation (whether it should be or not is another discussion).

    The term "Rock" is overly broad and unhelpfully vague, and I would object to such sweeping generalizations as "rock music is audio sex." While some may well be, obviously much is not. I realize this thread is not for debate, so I will try not to start any. I simply thought it might be good to balance some of the opinion in this thread. Obviously, good Christians will disagree on this issue.

    Out of curiosity though, how do those who oppose "rock" feel about Country, Jazz, or Bluegrass?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2007
  24. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    Original Defination of Rock:

    Rock and Roll: Lets get down and Rock and Roll Baby... Something to that affect I read.... The name is helpful so I disagree....

    Define Country: Old Country, or Modern Country mixed with Rock....

    I have no problem with Old style Country, I have every problem with Modern Country that is mixed with Rock music... Or as we call it Country-Rock Music.
    Bluegrass aleast the old styles are some of the old style country I mentioned.
    As for jazz, there is Classical Jazz without beats and eroticism.

    As for your comments about Rock music not being generalized, I suggest reading Rolling Stones Magazine, or the artist's other writings about their own movement... I have quotes around here somewhere if anyone is interested.... They can speak for themselves....

    Michael


     
  25. Coram Deo

    Coram Deo Puritan Board Junior

    To BobVigneault, and bradofshaw...

    :handshake:


    But I will continue to :pray2: for you brothers in Christ on this matter... :p

    Michael
     
  26. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    Let's debate rock music here.

    The gloves are off!!! :rant:
     
  27. No Longer A Libertine

    No Longer A Libertine Puritan Board Senior

    Nothing in creation is in and of itself evil, it has to be perverted and misused by man to turn it into sonic p0rnography or hedonist propaganda.

    Music in and of itself is a powerful and moving gift from God even those that don't satisfy personal tastes like hip hop, that is definitely from the devil:p ;) .
     
  28. LoveReading

    LoveReading Inactive User

    Hi Michael,

    I've read through this whole discussion and am fascinated. I would ask you this: lots of classical music is very Romantic and sensual in its very nature. Yes, it may not have the Rock 'n Roll beat, but it does stir those passions. Would you be opposed to listening to that kind of music? Even great Christian classics - such as "The Messiah" were written in such a way that it makes your spirit react in a passionate way. I know when I hear the Messiah it takes every ounce of will I have to not move - but to sit there quietly. Music in it's very nature gives voice to those passions which words cannot express. Yes - sometimes it will lead to sensual thoughts, whether the music is rock, rap, classical or anything else. I'm just wondering where we ought to draw the line. If rock music stirs up passions and classical music does as well, where does the line get drawn? I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to clarify my understanding of your position on music in general. Thanks!
     
  29. bradofshaw

    bradofshaw Puritan Board Freshman

    You probably couldn't pay me to read Rolling Stone. I would suggest instead, for a different view of what is good in rock, reading Paste magazine. :) It is thoughtful, and not specifically Christian in any sense. But it is run by Christians who happen to be PCA members, although I don't know much about them.

    I'm certainly not arguing that rock music doesn't have a lot of filth, or that some of its originators were not influenced by sex and satanism. But really, there is little or no necessary connection between these origins and what has become the broader body of rock music. I actually despise much of popular rock music. I think so much of it is poorly done, and focuses too much on sex and debauchery. But, believe it or not, there is good rock music that doesn't. And that is mainly my point here.

    I bring up Country, Jazz, and Bluegrass, because so much of rock music is a blending of these. Take Dylan for example. While I'm not a fan of his, his music is much more country or bluegrass than voodoo. I say this because I don't think rock music has one root, but instead incorporates varied styles.

    As for the title "rock and roll," we all know what it originally referred to. But sometimes names just stick. But you can't deny it is a broad category. At this point, it is so diluted by sub-genres that it is not fair to characterize the whole by the originators of the form. I would argue that the term "Rock" has really come more to represent the paradigm shift in popular composition of folk music than it is representative of the actual style and characteristics of the 50s and 60s rock and roll movement.

    We could argue about the particulars (dancing, sensuality, etc.), but I wouldn't make the particulars necessarily representative of the whole. That's all. I'll refrain from further debate now.


    :handshake:
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2007
  30. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

    You can't appeal to the argument that because a rock musician is decadent the musical genre is also decadent. That's like saying:

    a. Bishop Spong is a theologian and he teaches heresy;
    b. John Murray is a theologian, therefore
    c. Theology is evil because heretics use it to teach. We need to pray for John Murray.

    As for Little Richard I find his theology a bit 'Tutti Frutti'.
     
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