Rock Music - Let's Debate: Evil or Neutral?

Discussion in 'The Pilgrims Progress' started by Dieter Schneider, Apr 12, 2007.

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  1. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator

     
  2. matthew11v25

    matthew11v25 Puritan Board Sophomore

    :lol: Its inevitable
     
  3. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor

    Anything that encourages rebellion against God's Word is evil. I do believe that the modern day rock/hip hop/ "country" music culture is evil to it's core. I ask you this, name me two songs in rock music that encourage sexual purity.
    It is of the flesh in my opinion. It does not glorify God. Can it be made to glorify God by giving it religious lyrics? That is another question altogether.
    No offense meant to anyone here. Just my :2cents:
     
  4. No Longer A Libertine

    No Longer A Libertine Puritan Board Senior

    Black gosepel music and Southern blue grass are the ancestors to rock, blame it on the South I guess, every other problem in this country usually is.:(

    I like rock my myself, I roll my eyes at the idolatry of a hall of fame and how serious some folk take each other but I like a toe tapping good time.
     
  5. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor

    Everything in this country? Come now brother.:think:
     
  6. panta dokimazete

    panta dokimazete Panting Donkey Machete

    Yes - please, this is fascinating...

    I am certainly curious as to the "Satanic" origin of any music - that is the portion that is instrumental.

    Lyrics are another thing, entirely.

    Also - please don't quote Little Richard as an musical origins specialist - I would not consider him a credible musicologist. :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2007
  7. bradofshaw

    bradofshaw Puritan Board Freshman

    Well, with Bob's permission... :D Honestly, I see no reason why this has to get heated. I always attempt to be civil in such discussions anyway.

    As for the question of origins, I think you could use an analogy to pretty much all the other arts, which is one reason I think that historically Christan's have avoided the arts. Let's take literature for example.

    The origins of the genre of fiction can be traced back to Greece. Obviously, Homer was a pagan, and he was writing about pagan things. Can fiction than be used to portray a faulty worldview? Yes it can. Is all fiction evil? I know some Christians who will say so, but that is sort of an extreme position. I'm not prepared to throw out the good works of fiction by both Christians and non-Christians.

    I know that theater has been debated here before as well. It has the same pagan origins in classical Greece. The further you trace this line of reasoning, the more Western Culture becomes evil and unusable for the Christian. And let's not get into non-western culture, which is obviously steeped in paganism and satanic ritual. ;)

    One other note, I hate dancing. But I am one heck of an air drummer, and I do have a hard time not drumming along to my favorite songs. *Now listening to Neil Peart's fabulous drum solo from Rush's R30 concert* :coffee:
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2007
  8. No Longer A Libertine

    No Longer A Libertine Puritan Board Senior

    I was exaggerating, the northeast likes to behave as if religious zealots, slavery, and hickness are all southern contributions to American society which isn't true of course but the very attitude of Yankee superiority that helped fuel the Civil War remains in place to this day.
     
  9. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Must it have religious lyrics in order to glorify God?
     
  10. No Longer A Libertine

    No Longer A Libertine Puritan Board Senior

    Does not even the heathen who fills his plate with wrath by manifesting his blasphemy with lecherous song in the end glorify God?
     
  11. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I was just trying to say that we don't need to make everything religious in order to feel justified in partaking of it as Christians.
     
  12. No Longer A Libertine

    No Longer A Libertine Puritan Board Senior

    Truly, you speak of genuine liberty.

    Spiritualizing our worthless wrags is of no benefit, it is usually contrived and of ulterior motive as well.

    Let our freedoms be what they are, freedom.
     
  13. SRoper

    SRoper Puritan Board Graduate

    Now I'm a virgin, so perhaps I'm in need of correction, but a rhythm of "two short beats, a long beat, then a pause" seems like a strange way to have sex.
     
  14. bradofshaw

    bradofshaw Puritan Board Freshman

    I was wondering the same thing Scott... but I thought it best not to ask... :um:
     
  15. Kevin

    Kevin Puritan Board Doctor

    :agree:

    Well said, Brad. I was going to make the same point but you did it first (and better:up: ).
     
  16. Kevin

    Kevin Puritan Board Doctor

    We will let brother. Bob explain it to you. He is older then the rest of us...:lol:
     
  17. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I was also wondering whether "neutral" and "evil" are the only choices (see thread topic). The heavens and the earth are not religious entities, but I would hardly consider them neutral. The heavens are telling of the glory of God and the firmament displays His handiwork. Does something have to scream "Jesus" at you in order to be "good"? If music, as someone mentioned earlier, falls into the category of something that can be considered part of creation, then that allows us to call (at least some) secular music good, doesn't it?
     
  18. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator


    Uhhhhh, yeah, you see..... I'm looking for a long stick to see if I even want to touch that... uh..., I'll be back in a while, maybe there's some long sticks over there, or a 10 foot cattle prod maybe.
     
  19. jolivetti

    jolivetti Puritan Board Freshman

    "Now I'm a virgin, so perhaps I'm in need of correction, but a rhythm of "two short beats, a long beat, then a pause" seems like a strange way to have sex."

    Ha! That's great!

    But this from thunaer: "It can not be denied.... The sound is p0rnography in and of itself....." I can and do deny this. I find some of your arguments interesting and your concern for holiness compelling, but unchecked platitudes like this cannot help the discussion.

    As far as resources, let me argue again that we don't need "resources" - we have all we need (2 Pet. 1:3). We have the Spirit of God and the the Scriptures, imparting wisdom to us. Let each man decide what to listen to - surely there are things we can all reject (Marilyn Manson perhaps?), but with the rest, let us each decide according to wisdom, Christian liberty and an honest evaluation of our heart's condition. Please.

    This isn't a call to end the debate, but to keep the debate in its place. Let's not pretend God's Word lays down a clear, discernable law about music styles. Like it or not, we have to exercise wisdom here.
     
  20. Kevin

    Kevin Puritan Board Doctor

    :up: Good point!

    The problem is "exercising wisdom" is hard work. A list of do's & don'ts is much easier to follow. Not that anyone here has advocated that (yet) but in our flesh we desire that kind of black/white solution.
     
  21. tdowns

    tdowns Puritan Board Junior

    Old Time Rock and Roll....

    Old time rock & roll

    Just take those old records off the shelf
    Ill sit and listen to em by myself
    Todays music aln t got the same soul
    I like that old time rock n roll
    Dont try to take me to a disco
    Youll never even get me out on the
    In ten minutes Ill be late for the door
    I like that old time rockn roll

    Still like that old time rockn roll
    That kind of music just soothes the soul
    I reminisce about the days of old
    With that old time rock n roll
    Wont go to hear them play a tango
    Id rather hear some blues or funky old soul
    Theres only sure way to get me to go
    Start playing old time rock n roll
    Call me a relic, call me what you will
    Say Im old-fashioned, say Im over the hill
    Today music aint got the same soul
    I like that old time rock n roll

    Still like that old time rockn roll
    That kind of music just soothes the soul
    I reminisce about the days of old
    With that old time rock n roll
     
  22. No Longer A Libertine

    No Longer A Libertine Puritan Board Senior

    How about Devil's Food Cake? Should we partake of it? By it's title alone it has obviously been compromised spiritually.;)
     
  23. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I don't refuse to watch Duke play only because I don't care much for sports! ;)
     
  24. No Longer A Libertine

    No Longer A Libertine Puritan Board Senior

    Or hockey because of the New Jersey Devils.

    By the way if you are fixing to be a man at 21 you need to start watching football, it was part of the Patriot Act, you could lose your citizenship if you don't take up football.
     
  25. Founded on the Rock

    Founded on the Rock Puritan Board Freshman

    Music carries a message. For example, in my Bible classes we listen to secular music occasionally to get a worldly perspective on issues in the music industry.

    I am not an expert on Francis Schaffer, but didn't he say something to the effect of philosophy and theology affecting music? In some ways, I listen to secular music to get the worlds perspective on things. The lyrics are not good, but many times the way in which they express their opinions is creative and well thought out.

    Becoming a huge supporter of the rock industry is not something that is good, but listening to it is fine in my opinion. I know everyone won't agree with this, but is it not similar in someone to reading a book written by a non-believer? You need to stay clear of the extremely slezzy stuff, but there is nothing wrong with understanding the current culture...

    I could be off-base here, but just my thoughts :)
     
  26. bradofshaw

    bradofshaw Puritan Board Freshman

    Yes. I think you are absolutely correct. There are forms in art that are excellent and there are those that are flawed, petty, or poor. I think there are characteristics of God that are reflected in the creation, and even the unbeliever, being made in God's image, is capable of making art that displays those characteristics. Even the pagan knows of virtues such as honor, love, devotion, justice, trust, friendship, etc. His view of them is flawed by his unbelief, but even the Christian does not displays these perfectly.

    When I make a business transaction with an unbeliever, and he carries out his end of the bargain, he may be acting inconsistently with the possible consequences of his sinful nature, but he has still done "well" in this act. When an unbeliever displays beauty in his art, he is reflecting back a characteristic that flows from God's beauty alone. He may be misguided in his intentions, but he has still done something well. Certainly we can say that unbelievers such as Leonardo, Beethoven, Homer, or John Lennon have made works that are reflective of a certain standard of beauty or value.

    What is "good" and "bad" art is a very difficult and slippery discussion. I would say that beauty in rock music is on a different level than beauty in classical music. There is overlap, but the medium and its purposes are different and can't be compared by all the same standards. That said, I'm not sure we're even discussing whether or not rock music is of poor artistic quality (although I would say some of it really is).
     
  27. panta dokimazete

    panta dokimazete Panting Donkey Machete

    oh...my...
     
  28. bradofshaw

    bradofshaw Puritan Board Freshman

    :agree:

    I think this is a good perspective to take. I think it is much more important to instruct people to be discerning like this than to make a new law (to reference Derek Webb).
     
  29. panta dokimazete

    panta dokimazete Panting Donkey Machete

    seriously - I am having trouble understanding this from a merely semantic standpoint as it applies to music...I believe there is music "associated" with cinematic p0rnography, but I would have trouble associating the elements of musical composition with p0rnography, per se.

    What is a "pornographic" musical tone or rhythm? What compositional method would be associated with it? For instance - take a look at the last act of Don Giovanni - it is my understanding that the banquet scene has been interpreted as an orgiastic activity between the guests and the Don. Others have interpreted the same scene with much more "restraint". Does that make Mozart's music "pornographic"? Guilt by association?
     
  30. Me Died Blue

    Me Died Blue Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I think this is possibly the best thing that has been pointed out in this thread so far.

    Indeed. This reminded me a lot of Derek Webb's song "A New Law," (lyrics here) as that is exactly what it talks about. In fact, one of the many examples he gives is, "Don't teach me about truth and beauty, just label my music."
     
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