Rock Music - Let's Debate: Evil or Neutral?
- Thread starter Dieter Schneider
- Start date
- Status
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Hello Rebecca,
I am arguing over passion.. When I sing the Psalms I am lifted to new highs. When I sing Psalm 84 to the tune of llangloffan it brings tears to my eyes and I am filled with passion for my Lord and being in his house on the Sabbath. The question should be What kind of passion. Is it joy, or love, worship for our God, is it enticing lustful, does it have a sexual beat to it. Does it stir sexual passion.. There is Nationalistic Passion music, i.e. Richard Wagner which stirs the racial ethnic (Ethos) passions, and even Romantic nonsexual passion music in some of the Romantic Classical music.
Rock Music has a primative lustful sexual passion
Michael
I am arguing over passion.. When I sing the Psalms I am lifted to new highs. When I sing Psalm 84 to the tune of llangloffan it brings tears to my eyes and I am filled with passion for my Lord and being in his house on the Sabbath. The question should be What kind of passion. Is it joy, or love, worship for our God, is it enticing lustful, does it have a sexual beat to it. Does it stir sexual passion.. There is Nationalistic Passion music, i.e. Richard Wagner which stirs the racial ethnic (Ethos) passions, and even Romantic nonsexual passion music in some of the Romantic Classical music.
Rock Music has a primative lustful sexual passion
Michael
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Little Richard is unbias in his view of origins of Rock Music.. It is about himself and his genre of music.. I think this is pulling a strawman but I will sight a some more...
Jeff Godwin (Dancing with Demons) gives some startling evidence on the number of influential rock musicians who studied the ancient beats of satanic worship. These rockers include Brian Jones, John Phillips, Mick Fleetwood, Jimmy Page, and Robert Plant. These men studied with Satanic masters in their attempt to find rhythmic freedom.
(I would also refer the reade to an excellent study of beats as it relates to primitive cultures in Lenny Siedel's book Face the Music, Chapter 3.)
Michael
Jeff Godwin (Dancing with Demons) gives some startling evidence on the number of influential rock musicians who studied the ancient beats of satanic worship. These rockers include Brian Jones, John Phillips, Mick Fleetwood, Jimmy Page, and Robert Plant. These men studied with Satanic masters in their attempt to find rhythmic freedom.
(I would also refer the reade to an excellent study of beats as it relates to primitive cultures in Lenny Siedel's book Face the Music, Chapter 3.)
Michael
Yes - please, this is fascinating...
I am certainly curious as to the "Satanic" origin of any music - that is the portion that is instrumental.
Lyrics are another thing, entirely.
Also - please don't quote Little Richard as an musical origins specialist - I would not consider him a credible musicologist.
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Quote from The Battle for Christian Music:
Perhaps some of you are asking yourselves the question, "But how can a musical note be inherently good or bad? Aren't notes just a matter of pitch variation, tonal vibration, compressions, and decompressions of air?" Those are fair questions.
Years ago I heard a tape of a man who defending the neutrality of music in public. He waslked over to the piano and played a C major chord. Then, he asked the audience if it was a good C major chord, or an evil C major chord. After some scattered laugther, he said, "see, there's no such thing as good or evil music."
He made a rather obvious mistake, however, in his reasoning: a C major chord isn't music! It is a building block of music-- and there's a big difference.
Take the English language, for example. If I write the letter
E
is that a good e or a bad e? Neither. As a building block of the english language it is a neutral entity. However, I as a creative writer can put that letter in conjunetion with other letters and communicate something like..
PraisE the Lord...
or
I hatE God..
In both of the above usages I Have taken neutral letters and put them together to communicate something to you. However, what I have communicated is definitely not neutral, and my intent is clearly conveyed.
One is Holy
One is Unholy and Evil..
Aspiring artist go to school to study netural devices used in the creative process of painting-- devices such as line, color, shade, perspective, texture, contrast, etc. A stroll through any major art gallery in our country will reveal that some artist use these devices to paint beautiful portriats, landscapes, or still images. Othe rartist take these same neutral devices and put them together in such a way as to paint nudity and lewd subject matter that would embarrass any decent person...
Why are we willing to admit these facts when it comes to literature, art, sculpture or any other form of creativity-- but not music?
When you enter a freshman theory class as a music major in any discipline of music, among the first things you would study are the "ingredients" (Neutral elements) of music: melody, rhythm, and harmony. In music theory you will learn what is the correct order of the three.. You will learn that first is a good melody, supported harmony, undergirded with a firm and consistent rhythm.
We speak of the balance between melody, harmony, and rhythmn in good music. Rock music inverts that order.. Rock music elevates rhythmn as the most stressed element, then harmony, melody is last.
It could not be stated more clearly. Rock inverts the elements of music. The melody and lyrics are given less importance than the rhythmn and the harmony. The elements of music have been reversed. They stand "in opposition to authority." They are rebellious.
Though it is clear that rhythm is an aspect of music generally, in the music of rebellion it is the prominent element. Rhythm is the most distinguishing feature of rock music. In Good music the primary beat in a measure is the first beat, while the secondary beat (of a group of four beats) is on the third. This is not only true of balanced music, but also of our own rhythmic pulse, the ticking of a clock, or the waves of the ocean. God's creation shows us regular, recurring accents in rhythm.
Normal
ONE, two, THREE, four
backbeat
one, TWO, three, FOUR
breakbeat
one-AND, two-AND, three-AND, four-AND
End of Quote..
I have somewhere a complete copy of my music theory notes on music which is foundation for understanding music.. I hope I will be able to find them and post them soon...
Michael
Perhaps some of you are asking yourselves the question, "But how can a musical note be inherently good or bad? Aren't notes just a matter of pitch variation, tonal vibration, compressions, and decompressions of air?" Those are fair questions.
Years ago I heard a tape of a man who defending the neutrality of music in public. He waslked over to the piano and played a C major chord. Then, he asked the audience if it was a good C major chord, or an evil C major chord. After some scattered laugther, he said, "see, there's no such thing as good or evil music."
He made a rather obvious mistake, however, in his reasoning: a C major chord isn't music! It is a building block of music-- and there's a big difference.
Take the English language, for example. If I write the letter
E
is that a good e or a bad e? Neither. As a building block of the english language it is a neutral entity. However, I as a creative writer can put that letter in conjunetion with other letters and communicate something like..
PraisE the Lord...
or
I hatE God..
In both of the above usages I Have taken neutral letters and put them together to communicate something to you. However, what I have communicated is definitely not neutral, and my intent is clearly conveyed.
One is Holy
One is Unholy and Evil..
Aspiring artist go to school to study netural devices used in the creative process of painting-- devices such as line, color, shade, perspective, texture, contrast, etc. A stroll through any major art gallery in our country will reveal that some artist use these devices to paint beautiful portriats, landscapes, or still images. Othe rartist take these same neutral devices and put them together in such a way as to paint nudity and lewd subject matter that would embarrass any decent person...
Why are we willing to admit these facts when it comes to literature, art, sculpture or any other form of creativity-- but not music?
When you enter a freshman theory class as a music major in any discipline of music, among the first things you would study are the "ingredients" (Neutral elements) of music: melody, rhythm, and harmony. In music theory you will learn what is the correct order of the three.. You will learn that first is a good melody, supported harmony, undergirded with a firm and consistent rhythm.
We speak of the balance between melody, harmony, and rhythmn in good music. Rock music inverts that order.. Rock music elevates rhythmn as the most stressed element, then harmony, melody is last.
It could not be stated more clearly. Rock inverts the elements of music. The melody and lyrics are given less importance than the rhythmn and the harmony. The elements of music have been reversed. They stand "in opposition to authority." They are rebellious.
Though it is clear that rhythm is an aspect of music generally, in the music of rebellion it is the prominent element. Rhythm is the most distinguishing feature of rock music. In Good music the primary beat in a measure is the first beat, while the secondary beat (of a group of four beats) is on the third. This is not only true of balanced music, but also of our own rhythmic pulse, the ticking of a clock, or the waves of the ocean. God's creation shows us regular, recurring accents in rhythm.
Normal
ONE, two, THREE, four
backbeat
one, TWO, three, FOUR
breakbeat
one-AND, two-AND, three-AND, four-AND
End of Quote..
I have somewhere a complete copy of my music theory notes on music which is foundation for understanding music.. I hope I will be able to find them and post them soon...
Michael
Dagmire
Puritan Board Freshman
I deny it. I don't agree with you at all. In fact, I think your opinion on the matter is bizarre and baseless. It's what comes out of a man that defiles him, not what goes into his ears.
I am a very big fan of Tool. I have had some very good spiritual thinking session while listening to Tool. In fact, their music often leads me to think about God and his ways. They're amazing musicians and I love hearing what they are able to create. They're able to create it because they're made in God's image. They use heavy distortion, odd time signatures and thumping beats, but it doesn't make me think about sex or the devil.
I very strongly disagree with you that any kind of music is inherently evil. I believe that music, like anything, can be perverted, but I do not think you can throw a blanket over an entire genre. There is a lot of lyrical filth that you should not pollute your mind with, but again, I do not think that music drives you to do evil. I think you should examine your own heart and ask God for understanding of why music affects you that way.
I don't mean to speak too harshly against your convictions. Follow them, certainly.
Of course, your reasons for listening to music are a different matter. If you're listening to rock music for sinful reasons, then it's certainly wrong. But I think it's a matter of what drives you to listen to the music, not where the music drives you. It may be that, for some people, music works as a catalyst for sinful desire, but it is the sinful desire that's the problem, not the music. A glutton eats for sinful reasons and food aids him in his sin, but there is not evil food. When he is changed by God, he eats to the glory of Christ. I really believe that you can listen to music to the glory of God, whether it is rock or classical.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
"Rock Music has a primitive lustful sexual passion"
Again, Michael, this is an assertion. I am very familiar with the assertions of those who believe that rock music is somehow evil in and of itself. I am also familiar with musicians who are pagans.
I keep reading these resources you are posting but I must admit, the logic is dizzying. These are just assertions written to people whose minds are already made up and trying to offer some type of legitimate justification. (is that redundant?)
Again, Michael, this is an assertion. I am very familiar with the assertions of those who believe that rock music is somehow evil in and of itself. I am also familiar with musicians who are pagans.
I keep reading these resources you are posting but I must admit, the logic is dizzying. These are just assertions written to people whose minds are already made up and trying to offer some type of legitimate justification. (is that redundant?)
bradofshaw
Puritan Board Freshman
Thunaer,
I think you are making some arbitrary categories when you talk about the different sorts of passion. I think it is more probable that there are different levels and intensities of passion which are applied to different purposes. Certainly, when I listen to Wagner, I am not stirred to Arianism. The music is very stirring though, and has been used in war movies, in sports broadcasts, and in TV commercials. But I don't think anybody has been stirred to any sort of nationalism just by hearing the music.
As for The Battle for Christian Music, that's fine if he wants to assert that the basic elements of music have to go in a traditional classical order. But its a pretty baseless assertion. It's true, I have a hard time listening to classical music because the rhythmic and tonal properties are so foreign to me. But if you asked me how to write a good song, I would probably start with a good strong beat. So what? I see a lot of assertion in that quotation, but I certainly don't see any Biblical support for those assertions.
As for the example with the letter E, that doesn't demonstrate how just because one rhythm, harmony, or melody was once used to express an "evil" idea, that the replication or modification of that element is necessarily "evil."
A lot of what I have read by Christians on the subject of the evils of rock music is reactionary. It's true, rock music introduced non-traditional elements to western music, including African and eventually eastern elements, and popularized folk forms instead of classical, high art forms. For a musician trained in the western tradition, I can see how offensive the music might seem. But I think that as time goes by, you will see fewer and fewer Christians subscribing to those notions out of mere familiarity. I really can't see how it's any different than how the Catholic Church once outlawed the augmented fifth, but now it doesn't sound evil or unholy in any way.
I think you are making some arbitrary categories when you talk about the different sorts of passion. I think it is more probable that there are different levels and intensities of passion which are applied to different purposes. Certainly, when I listen to Wagner, I am not stirred to Arianism. The music is very stirring though, and has been used in war movies, in sports broadcasts, and in TV commercials. But I don't think anybody has been stirred to any sort of nationalism just by hearing the music.
As for The Battle for Christian Music, that's fine if he wants to assert that the basic elements of music have to go in a traditional classical order. But its a pretty baseless assertion. It's true, I have a hard time listening to classical music because the rhythmic and tonal properties are so foreign to me. But if you asked me how to write a good song, I would probably start with a good strong beat. So what? I see a lot of assertion in that quotation, but I certainly don't see any Biblical support for those assertions.
As for the example with the letter E, that doesn't demonstrate how just because one rhythm, harmony, or melody was once used to express an "evil" idea, that the replication or modification of that element is necessarily "evil."
A lot of what I have read by Christians on the subject of the evils of rock music is reactionary. It's true, rock music introduced non-traditional elements to western music, including African and eventually eastern elements, and popularized folk forms instead of classical, high art forms. For a musician trained in the western tradition, I can see how offensive the music might seem. But I think that as time goes by, you will see fewer and fewer Christians subscribing to those notions out of mere familiarity. I really can't see how it's any different than how the Catholic Church once outlawed the augmented fifth, but now it doesn't sound evil or unholy in any way.
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Hitler was stirred by Richard Wagner, that is a fact.. Hey, I am german, I liked Wagner. I can even feel the nationalist pull when I play it...
As for the elements of music.. That is Music Theory 101... Maybe take the class sometime.... Do not forget to go to the other Music Theory classes either afterwards.... That is 6000 years of Music Theory and Education... Do not let the last 100 years throw out the last 6000 years and as quoted before is based in nature........
Michael
As for the elements of music.. That is Music Theory 101... Maybe take the class sometime.... Do not forget to go to the other Music Theory classes either afterwards.... That is 6000 years of Music Theory and Education... Do not let the last 100 years throw out the last 6000 years and as quoted before is based in nature........
Michael
bradofshaw
Puritan Board Freshman
Admittedly, I've never taken a music theory class. I did take pop music (including the book you've cited) and music history classes in college with professors (Reformed Christians) who training in theory. They dismissed those claims (that the inverted beat is sinful) as arbitrary as well. I'm certainly not wanting to throw out the history of western music, or disparage it. In fact, I think it is extremely important to study it and listen to it. And I certainly am not arguing that that is not what is taught in music theory.
But what we are talking about with rock music is a different medium of sorts. As I said before, there is overlap. But I wouldn't want to make universal norms out of the classical tradition and say anything not fitting into it is unnatural or aesthetically bad. Rock music is new, and yes it had a very large cultural impact. Who knows if it will be lasting, but for now, it's the way our culture views music. For that reason alone it has importance.
Part of the reason music theory remained unchanged for so long was just the nature of technology and the cultural climate. More people can make more and different music now than ever before in history. Electronic recording and distribution makes music more accessible to the masses than ever. Multiculturalism and globalization have introduced different sounds and styles from around the world into the western environment. Setting aside the idea of "good" and "bad" styles, you have to admit that everything has changed in the last 100 years. I don't know that we can just look at it through the traditional western paradigm, let alone establish that the traditional western paradigm is the one holy and infallible rule for how we view music.
Last edited:
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
With all due respect Mr. Moderator,
That kinda sounds like Bill Clinton who said he did not know that a certain act (unspoken for children) was having sex.
Fact: It makes the body move sensually..
Fact: It has a Lustful appeal
Fact: It is connected with sex and the sex movement.
Fact: The body movement mimmicks stimulated sex.
Fact: Music stirs passions, rightly or wrongly
Fact: It is tied to primitive culture and Pagan/Voodoo Worship.
So, it is not a assertion by all counts, that I even mentioned before..
I see this is not going anywhere, so I believe I am going to bail out. It is getting alittle heated and emotional on all sides...
Personally, I am disappointed in 21st Century Puritanism here.... Of course, the culture war is being lost and won't be won until Christ Returns. Aleast the church will be purged during Tribulation sometime in the future...
Coram Deo (All in the Presence of God),
Michael
That kinda sounds like Bill Clinton who said he did not know that a certain act (unspoken for children) was having sex.
Fact: It makes the body move sensually..
Fact: It has a Lustful appeal
Fact: It is connected with sex and the sex movement.
Fact: The body movement mimmicks stimulated sex.
Fact: Music stirs passions, rightly or wrongly
Fact: It is tied to primitive culture and Pagan/Voodoo Worship.
So, it is not a assertion by all counts, that I even mentioned before..
I see this is not going anywhere, so I believe I am going to bail out. It is getting alittle heated and emotional on all sides...
Personally, I am disappointed in 21st Century Puritanism here.... Of course, the culture war is being lost and won't be won until Christ Returns. Aleast the church will be purged during Tribulation sometime in the future...
Coram Deo (All in the Presence of God),
Michael
bradofshaw
Puritan Board Freshman
Since we're quoting Little Richard, here is Neil Peart of Rush talking about a response he wrote to a newspaper article accusing Rush and several other bands of promoting satanism and hiding subliminal messages in their recordings.
"Outraged, I wrote a letter to the paper's editor stating that I didn't even believe in these 'spirits,' good or evil, and pointing out that I happened to know many of the other bands named, and that they were far more concerned about their chart numbers and ticket sales than about spreading any kind of message. Ironically, that statement, not the accusation of devil worship, annoyed some readers, who didn't like me saying their 'heroes' might be more committed to mass popularity and commerce than to the rock ethos of 'rock 'n' roll all night and party every day,' so of course they reacted by criticizing me." - Neil Peart, Traveling Music
In the full response he vehemently denies any link to satanism. That's not to say there is no satanic influence in rock music, but again, I would hate to say because some is present, all are guilty.
I'm gone for the weekend. It was a fun discussion though.
"Outraged, I wrote a letter to the paper's editor stating that I didn't even believe in these 'spirits,' good or evil, and pointing out that I happened to know many of the other bands named, and that they were far more concerned about their chart numbers and ticket sales than about spreading any kind of message. Ironically, that statement, not the accusation of devil worship, annoyed some readers, who didn't like me saying their 'heroes' might be more committed to mass popularity and commerce than to the rock ethos of 'rock 'n' roll all night and party every day,' so of course they reacted by criticizing me." - Neil Peart, Traveling Music
In the full response he vehemently denies any link to satanism. That's not to say there is no satanic influence in rock music, but again, I would hate to say because some is present, all are guilty.
I'm gone for the weekend. It was a fun discussion though.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Little Richard is a flamboyant entertainer that uses controversy to draw attention to himself.
Please quote your sources. Give quotes and references to support your assertions.
Also - what about the ancient beats of Jehovah worship? Could you discern the difference?
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
From whence does their inspiration come? When Steve Harris wrote "Number of the Beast", from whence was his inspiration? Is this a God-moved use of the gift of music? No. Yes, it is hyperbole, but I don't know that we need to go into much beyond inspiration (which in many cases becomes visible in the lyircs of the songs, though not always.)
Again, if the musician and his inspiration is without God, then where does his inspiration come from? The answer to this should tell us whether or not the music is 'evil' or suitable for our ears.
Again, if the musician and his inspiration is without God, then where does his inspiration come from? The answer to this should tell us whether or not the music is 'evil' or suitable for our ears.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
This is a fallacious argument concatenating true language with the concept of music as language. True language has much greater nuance than music as language. Music could potentially be considered the "language of emotion" but it's capability to be "fine tuned" to the degree this author asserts is simply a strawman. Point in fact - point me to one tune or beat or combination that unmistakably communicates "I love God" or "I hate God" to a culturally diverse group of people.
To utilize your style:
Fact: You can't
Fact: Music is too subjective to categorize in this way.
If you must - understanding that the BM and 2 MMs after my sig denotes undergrad and graduate degrees in Music from a Presbyterian and a Baptist college, respectively. Not trying to brag, just want you to understand that this is an area of expertise for me - taught from a Christian worldview.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
5solasmom
Puritan Board Freshman
I agree.
I've also heard the argument about the beating/voodoo link and to me, it's unconvincing. Those who practiced voodoo did not "invent" beat (and surely weren't the first to use it) and beating is not inherently evil (scripturally I cannot defend that view).
To say that because pagans practiced drum beating in sinful rituals does not make drum beating now wrong. But then again, I rarely buy the "origins" arguments for reasons not to do something today (such as observe Christmas, etc. etc.).
Most songs (perhaps all but ya gotta leave room for the rare exceptions, right?) have a beat whether it comes from a drum or not.
I agree that this is an area where we need to exercise wisdom. It's just not black and white.
No Longer A Libertine
Puritan Board Senior
Dance is dependent upon rhythm, even our heart beat is so as you say it would be fallacy to give it over to voodoo.
5solasmom
Puritan Board Freshman
Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
But even the musician's intent in originally making the music (and whether it was done with a desire to glorify God) doesn't in and of itself dictate what our intent (and the resulting outcome) has to be in listening to it. Some analogous examples to clarify why that's the case might include food, or art: If a chef had no intent or desire to glorify God in his creation of a dish, does that mean that we can't eat it with just such an intent and desire? Of course not.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
True enough. However, why take something which is unholy and try to make it holy?
I have a spade which I use to turn pig manure and I could clean it up to the point where I could use it to stir a big pot of pasta with, but why do it? It was made to turn pig manure. I don't know that you could take that analogy much further, but why bother with the filth when you need not?
I guess part of what bothers me with this issue is that why bother with the RPW if we listen to this sort of music? Where is the disconnect? All that we do we do unto Him, from the largest to the smallest. If we are a living sacrifice, if we worship with our very lives, are we not heaping false fire upon the altar in partaking of this music?
I personally am not so worried about the beat. I don't know that we can define how the psalms were sung or how the lyre and timbrels were used in praising the Lord. But when we look to its intent and the purpose in its creation, there we should be more critical.
Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
But the difficulty is in deciding how far to take that principle, and what things we're going to consider "unholy." For instance, would we really want to make an effort to try to eat food cooked by Christian chefs (and thus more likely made with a God-glorifying intent) as often as possible? Or what about sports? The majority of most players in your average sports game would not be playing with an intent to glorify God by doing so. So what sets the creation of music apart from categories like the food and sports? It seems to me that the similarity they all share is that they are common things that come up all the time in our lives which we are perfectly able to enjoy to the glory of God, yet which would create a virtually impossible and obviously unnecessary and unhelpful standard of living if we started "screening" all such things before enjoying them to first make sure their creators were making them with godly motives as well.
Because one of the most foundational truths behind the RPW is the distinction between worship (particularly corporate) and the rest of our lives, originally seen in the distinction between worship in the temple and synagogue, and the common parts of our lives. Those "common" parts are indeed to be lived to the glory of God no less than distinguished times of worship - but in a different way. Otherwise, the RPW itself would be meaningless, since if the distinction between worship and other God-glorifying parts of our lives did not exist, we would have to either abandon the RPW altogether, or else limit all of our time to the particular elements of worship commanded and demonstrated in Scripture.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Ironically this thread began because I asked the prog rock fans if they had heard the new Neal Morse album about Martin Luther. Mr. Morse is a man who just as he reached the climax of the commercial success he had sought, he came under the conviction that he could write no more secular music. Now he uses the medium of prog rock (and his own God given musical genius) to spread biblical teaching and honor the Father.
Michael, I'm very sorry you bailed out. You were coming up against of formidable amount of disagreement but I didn't notice anyone becoming heated. I thought, given the topic, that this was a great discussion. Let me repeat that I greatly respect your convictions and your taking the lead in protecting your family. I appreciate your boldness to stand up to so much disagreement. Our commonality far outweighs those matters where we would find difference.
God bless you richly brother, it is a privilege to have you on the board.
Michael, I'm very sorry you bailed out. You were coming up against of formidable amount of disagreement but I didn't notice anyone becoming heated. I thought, given the topic, that this was a great discussion. Let me repeat that I greatly respect your convictions and your taking the lead in protecting your family. I appreciate your boldness to stand up to so much disagreement. Our commonality far outweighs those matters where we would find difference.
God bless you richly brother, it is a privilege to have you on the board.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
OK Chris, drop the RPW part of the argument. Where then do you draw the line? Is it the lyrics that will finally be a show stopper? The sensual nature of some of the music? What?
That Scripture is silent on this (due to its non-existance at the time) doesn't quite cut it for me. Why allow such a blatantly godless form of entertainment into your life?
How do we then say that these 'common parts', our lives as living sacrifices, are lived unto Him 100% if we spend our time partaking of these diversions? Are our thoughts not influenced by it? Why do we not limit ourselves to what is good and holy?
That Scripture is silent on this (due to its non-existance at the time) doesn't quite cut it for me. Why allow such a blatantly godless form of entertainment into your life?
How do we then say that these 'common parts', our lives as living sacrifices, are lived unto Him 100% if we spend our time partaking of these diversions? Are our thoughts not influenced by it? Why do we not limit ourselves to what is good and holy?
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
What kind of evidence would you accept as justification of the "music in itself is bad"?
CT
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
Certain kinds of animals and plants are inherently deadly to the touch or if consumed. So why is it prima facia problematic to say that certain music is inherently problematic?
CT
No Longer A Libertine
Puritan Board Senior
Music is more nuanced than a snake's venom.
Fleetwood Mac does not equal a den of Vipers to the Christian.
Scorpions the band does not equal scorpions in the desert.
If music is a stumbling block then shut it out and refrain from it, everyone is different in their struggles but we should not remove mirrors from public bathrooms because it promotes vanity just as we are not bound to fast from non vulgar media because it isn't "Christian" enough.
I first want to thank thunaer for posting that list of books. I'll get to reading them this Summer. OK, now for the post. To begin, nothing can ever be neutral in terms of good and evil. Music--and other things from man's imagination--are either from God's grace through man, or from the Adversary through man. I am going to boldly tell everyone here that every kind of song except the Psalms has at least some tendency toward evil, because it comes from man's heart and man's mind. Even if it's the most Jesus-praise-laiden Christian music, or if it's the purest and most beautiful orchestral piece, it always has some level of impurity and wickedness because hearts and minds are tainted. This is why I find singing the Psalms to be so beautiful and lifting !
Genesis 8:21b states that every man's imagination leans toward evil, and we have no innocence because we are this way out of the womb.
Jeremiah 17:9-10 says that the heart is wicked and deceitful, and God can only read the heart.
But here's some good news:
Mark 7:18-23 states nothing can corrupt us from outside (if we fully believe in Christ as our salvation), only from within. That is, evil springs forth from our own hearts and minds and that outside sources of evil will pass through us if we are protected by God. But who can protect us from the evil that comes from within? This shows that the source of deceit is our own, and we are our greatest enemies when we forget Christ.
(Romans 3:10-18 says no one is righteous; we are covered in sin. But it goes on to say that we find grace in Christ
But remember the vanity we tend toward.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 and onward states that the faithless are hopeless and know they are going to die anyway, so they resort to their own way of destruction. This is pointing out the way of life without grace.
So the big question is, can things of man's imagination be God's work through man? Yes, through Christ! Thank you to a fellow PB member for pointing out Ephesians 2:10 to me. This verse shows that we can be instruments of God, only if God wills it.
What about songs with profanity or images of fornication and the like? Can those be from God's grace?
Of course not! However, professing believers of Jesus Christ are to be held more accountable if they invite this into their lives. Foul speech is never the result of God, but since we all lean towards sin in one way or another, some justify using foul speech and listening to it.
So, the issue becomes censorship. It is impossible to censor ourselves (let alone our children) from the world. I know that everyone craves their own secret sins and they justify reasons to hang onto them. But all those reasons are self-centered and self-deceiving. I think that we need to listen to the advice of others when selecting our choices of music, movies, and the many other sources of entertainment. We're here to help one another, no? I say listen to whatever you want as long as you know it's not violating how God wants you to behave. If that means putting away (Ephesians 4:24) the TV and the record collection from your teenage years, so be it--it cannot hurt if it pleases God.
And how can we ourselves be creative and not inclined so much toward evil output? Through prayer and fully trusting and believing in Christ can we bring forth good fruits. Lacking faith means lacking fruits. Evidence of Christ in someone can be seen in their behavior.
Genesis 8:21b states that every man's imagination leans toward evil, and we have no innocence because we are this way out of the womb.
Jeremiah 17:9-10 says that the heart is wicked and deceitful, and God can only read the heart.
But here's some good news:
Mark 7:18-23 states nothing can corrupt us from outside (if we fully believe in Christ as our salvation), only from within. That is, evil springs forth from our own hearts and minds and that outside sources of evil will pass through us if we are protected by God. But who can protect us from the evil that comes from within? This shows that the source of deceit is our own, and we are our greatest enemies when we forget Christ.
(Romans 3:10-18 says no one is righteous; we are covered in sin. But it goes on to say that we find grace in Christ
But remember the vanity we tend toward.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 and onward states that the faithless are hopeless and know they are going to die anyway, so they resort to their own way of destruction. This is pointing out the way of life without grace.
So the big question is, can things of man's imagination be God's work through man? Yes, through Christ! Thank you to a fellow PB member for pointing out Ephesians 2:10 to me. This verse shows that we can be instruments of God, only if God wills it.
What about songs with profanity or images of fornication and the like? Can those be from God's grace?
Of course not! However, professing believers of Jesus Christ are to be held more accountable if they invite this into their lives. Foul speech is never the result of God, but since we all lean towards sin in one way or another, some justify using foul speech and listening to it.
So, the issue becomes censorship. It is impossible to censor ourselves (let alone our children) from the world. I know that everyone craves their own secret sins and they justify reasons to hang onto them. But all those reasons are self-centered and self-deceiving. I think that we need to listen to the advice of others when selecting our choices of music, movies, and the many other sources of entertainment. We're here to help one another, no? I say listen to whatever you want as long as you know it's not violating how God wants you to behave. If that means putting away (Ephesians 4:24) the TV and the record collection from your teenage years, so be it--it cannot hurt if it pleases God.
And how can we ourselves be creative and not inclined so much toward evil output? Through prayer and fully trusting and believing in Christ can we bring forth good fruits. Lacking faith means lacking fruits. Evidence of Christ in someone can be seen in their behavior.
- Status
