Romans 9 individual salvation or nations

[The Shepherd's Grace]

Hello,
I had a question in regards to Romans 9. I believe it’s speaking of individual salvation however I’m a little stumped on something.

If it’s not speaking of nations as the arminians claim, and it’s speaking of individual salvation, wouldn’t that mean Ishmael and Esau were not elected, so they were sent to hell?

Is there any scripture to prove they were vessels of destruction that went to hell?

 

[Catechised in Heidelberg]

Hello there,

I think it speaks of both, election of individuals and God's people (i.e. the Church) and reprobation of individuals and all the other people. People are also made up of individuals, so election sort of always is both.

For both I have a text in mind that specifically speak of this issue. About Ishmael Paul says in Gal. 4, 21-31 that he was not part of the covenant of grace and promises of God:

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27 For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.” 28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

About Esau the author to the Hebrews wrote a really tragic text in Hebr. 12, 15-17, in my opinion:

15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

I hope this is helpful.

Best and Blessings,
Damian

 

[The Shepherd's Grace]

Hello there,

I think it speaks of both, election of individuals and God's people (i.e. the Church) and reprobation of individuals and all the other people. People are also made up of individuals, so election sort of always is both.

For both I have a text in mind that specifically speak of this issue. About Ishmael Paul says in Gal. 4, 21-31 that he was not part of the covenant of grace and promises of God:

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27 For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.” 28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

About Esau the author to the Hebrews wrote a really tragic text in Hebr. 12, 15-17, in my opinion:

15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

I hope this is helpful.

Best and Blessings,
Damian

Yes, you helped me, thank you!