Rome's Christology

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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Is the Christ of the Roman Catholic Church the same Christ of the scriptures?

Rome does in fact embrace the Apostles Creed, but do their other illicit ideas cause a chain reaction in regards to undermining an orthodox Christology?
 
[b:09dc7e8aaf]Scott wrote:[/b:09dc7e8aaf]
Is the Christ of the Roman Catholic Church the same Christ of the scriptures?

Well, its spelled the same. Beyond that...
 
[i:f0c44524de]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:f0c44524de]
Is the Christ of the Roman Catholic Church the same Christ of the scriptures?
____________________________

Reply...

I would say yes, but their doctrine is a different salvation plan than that of the scriptures.

The Catholic church teaches that further cleansing of sin (venial)is needed before entering Heaven in Purgatory.

The scripture teaches that the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL Unrighteousness.


[Edited on 2-29-2004 by Gregg]
 
[i:280515198e]Originally posted by Gregg[/i:280515198e]
[quote:280515198e][i:280515198e]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:280515198e]
Is the Christ of the Roman Catholic Church the same Christ of the scriptures?
____________________________

Reply...

I would say yes, but their doctrine is a different salvation plan than that of the scriptures.

The Catholic church teaches that further cleansing of sin (venial)is needed before entering Heaven in Purgatory.

The scripture teaches that the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL Unrighteousness.
[/quote:280515198e]

Greg,
Question to you: If the RCC's view of Christs propitiation is flawed as well as their view of soteriology, can it be the same Christ of the scriptures?
 
[i:a4d01b58c6]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:a4d01b58c6]
[quote:a4d01b58c6][i:a4d01b58c6]Originally posted by Gregg[/i:a4d01b58c6]
[quote:a4d01b58c6][i:a4d01b58c6]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:a4d01b58c6]
Is the Christ of the Roman Catholic Church the same Christ of the scriptures?
____________________________

Reply...

I would say yes, but their doctrine is a different salvation plan than that of the scriptures.

The Catholic church teaches that further cleansing of sin (venial)is needed before entering Heaven in Purgatory.

The scripture teaches that the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL Unrighteousness.
[/quote:a4d01b58c6]

Greg,
Question to you: If the RCC's view of Christs propitiation is flawed as well as their view of soteriology, can it be the same Christ of the scriptures? [/quote:a4d01b58c6]

Reply...

Having been Catholic for 37 years, I would say yes.

Adding purgatory as well as their view of having to maintain a "state of grace" doesn't necessarily make Catholics worship and hope in a different Lord and Savior than that of the scriptures.

Catholics believe and worship Jesus as Lord and God (being one with God the Father and Holy Spirit as a Trinity) as you and I do as reformed believers.
 
Greg,
I see what you are saying. However, if RC's believe that justification by faith is NOT alone through Christ, I ask again, is it the same Christ of the bible and haven't they trusted in vain?
 
[quote:ab130df6b0][i:ab130df6b0]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:ab130df6b0]
Greg,
Question to you: If the RCC's view of Christs propitiation is flawed as well as their view of soteriology, can it be the same Christ of the scriptures? [/quote:ab130df6b0]

Just thinking out loud here, but if that is the conclusion (i.e. a different Christ) then wouldn't the same be true for pretty much all non-Calvinist? That is 'self conscience' non-Calvinists. I mean since most non-Calvinists have a skewed view of Christ's propitiaion and therefore soteriology. Just a thought...

[Edited on 2-29-2004 by BrianLanier]
 
[quote:6645081a54][i:6645081a54]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:6645081a54]
Greg,
I see what you are saying. However, if RC's believe that justification by faith is NOT alone through Christ, I ask again, is it the same Christ of the bible and haven't they trusted in vain? [/quote:6645081a54]
__________________________

Reply...

I still say yes,(although I don't think my reasoning is going to be enough). I also believe many Catholics are and will be saved in spite of their stance on justification.

Gregg
 
[quote:569566550b][i:569566550b]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:569566550b]
[quote:569566550b]
Question to you: If the RCC's view of Christs propitiation is flawed as well as their view of soteriology, can it be the same Christ of the scriptures?
[/quote:569566550b]

Well, you have just knocked out about 75 percent of protestant evangelicals. The Arminian view of those things are also flawed...are you willing to say that they, say Norman Geisler, do not have the Christ of the Scriptures?

And, are you 100% correct on all your views of soteriology?

And, I saw the movie. It didn't portray a false view of Christ (theologically). In fact, there is a flashback and we read the words (since it is in Aramaic), [b:569566550b]"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." [/b:569566550b] This wasn't a little blurb, this was in the middle of very intense sequence of events, and everyone in the movie saw that posted up on a huge screen. We Calvinists should rejoice at that.

So much for the false soteriology.

-Paul

[Edited on 2-29-2004 by Paul manata] [/quote:569566550b]

Paul,
What do the scriptures say?

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As far as Geisler is considered, or anyone else for that matter, as Jonah states,

Jon 2:9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. [b:569566550b]Salvation is of the LORD[/b:569566550b].
(Obviously, my emphasis added)

In regards to my soteriology, yes, I trust in HIM alone. I believe the scriptures say that I have a confidence in this.

Paul,
You say that theologically, they were right on. How can you say that when you know that Rome does not share you view. In fact, the Pope and Gibson would tell you differently. I understand from M. Kodaks posts that the walk along the Via De Rosa had Jesus falling exactly the number of times that coincide with the RC's "Station of the Cross" fiasco.

You mention John 6:44. The only problem with this is the contradiction that prevails. Rome is steeped in semi-Pelagianism and Nestorian error & because of that, grace is NOT irresistible..........
 
[quote:cc4312e64f][i:cc4312e64f]Originally posted by Gregg[/i:cc4312e64f]
[quote:cc4312e64f][i:cc4312e64f]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:cc4312e64f]
Greg,
I see what you are saying. However, if RC's believe that justification by faith is NOT alone through Christ, I ask again, is it the same Christ of the bible and haven't they trusted in vain? [/quote:cc4312e64f]
__________________________

Reply...

I still say yes,(although I don't think my reasoning is going to be enough). I also believe many Catholics are and will be saved in spite of their stance on justification.

Gregg [/quote:cc4312e64f]

Greg,
This is a can of worms friend. Where does it end? How about the native in the jungle whom never knows the truth of scripture?

[Edited on 2-29-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
[quote:2b308c2e1f][i:2b308c2e1f]Originally posted by BrianLanier[/i:2b308c2e1f]
[quote:2b308c2e1f][i:2b308c2e1f]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:2b308c2e1f]
Greg,
Question to you: If the RCC's view of Christs propitiation is flawed as well as their view of soteriology, can it be the same Christ of the scriptures? [/quote:2b308c2e1f]

Just thinking out loud here, but if that is the conclusion (i.e. a different Christ) then wouldn't the same be true for pretty much all non-Calvinist? That is 'self conscience' non-Calvinists. I mean since most non-Calvinists have a skewed view of Christ's propitiaion and therefore soteriology. Just a thought...

[Edited on 2-29-2004 by BrianLanier] [/quote:2b308c2e1f]

Brian,
I hear you. This idea does not give me peace. It may be true.
 
[quote:e78c666d9e][i:e78c666d9e]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:e78c666d9e]
[quote:e78c666d9e]
Paul,
You say that theologically, they were right on. How can you say that when you know that Rome does not share you view. In fact, the Pope and Gibson would tell you differently. I understand from M. Kodaks posts that the walk along the Via De Rosa had Jesus falling exactly the number of times that coincide with the RC's "Station of the Cross" fiasco.
[/quote:e78c666d9e]

Scott,

This is because the MOVIE does not teach that. the only way one could get that out of it is by Catholic presuppositions, but they read the Bible ITSELF that way to, so is the Bible itslef false? No, of course not. My point is that the MOVIE does not teach it. And as far as John 6:44, maybe THEY have that worldview, but IT WAS NOT taught in the movie. All the MOVIE says is "No man can come to the father but by me."!!!! I cannot believe that Calvinists are taking it this far. Even when I point out something good you have to say it's no good.

by the way, have...you..seen...the movie? I mean. is this scholarly? Is this how we reason in other matters? Do we only base it of biased reports, or do we check our sources?

...Anyway, your free to your opinion, and I know that it is against your conscience so I don't want to try and force something on you. Just understand that you, and others, may be going a bit far with this issue.

I am going to do a compolation over the next few months and find EVERY movie I can that even has a hint of a violation and make sure that those movies are not watched either. Because you should be consistant. For example, i think braveheart has some statues of Christ...so i hope you won't watch that anymore. But staytuned for the "shocking: list i will compile and post. All I ask is consistancy because of how the few who have seen it have been treated. staytuned for the backtracking guys.

-Paul [/quote:e78c666d9e]

Paul,
One last comment. You say that the movie does not teach these errors. No, I have not seen it. However, I have read many areview as well as have personally witnessed Gibsons statements about his production. You are correct brother, I will not see the movie. let me ask you a question. Paul, you have been academically blessed. God has saw fit to gift you with wisdomn and knowledge. You are well aware when there is error afoot. Brother, but what about the bleeping sheep whom wander about as if they had no shepherd? Gods word says, "My people perish for lack of knowledge". The movie has all sorts of dangerous inuendo; maybe not for you or I, but for the bleeping sheep, there is grave danger.

Do not think for a minute that the RCC is not counting upon numbers flocking to their illicit black masses in the future secondarily to this thing..........

Love ya brother.
 
[quote:6421c5810f][i:6421c5810f]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:6421c5810f]


Greg,
This is a can of worms friend. Where does it end? How about the native in the jungle whom never knows the truth of scripture?

[Edited on 2-29-2004 by Scott Bushey] [/quote:6421c5810f]

_________________________

Reply...

Is it a can of worms only because you can't see past having to have all the correct doctrine only as the prerequisite (sp?) to salvation?:rolleyes:

Do you doubt that God has some of his elect from among those in the Catholic faith also?



[Edited on 3-1-2004 by Gregg]
 
Greg,
In regards to your last post. May I extrapolate a tad on what I meant by "can of worms"?

You state:
I also believe many Catholics are and will be saved in spite of their stance on justification.

Do you understand what you are saying? You are saying that people can be saved outside of trusting solely in Christ. Christ alone justifies. If a person gets this one wrong, there are eternal consequences. Do you understand that the whole idea of protestantism is built on this doctrine. It is this doctrine that Luther was enlightened to. It was this doctrine that drove Luther to abandon Rome and nail his thesis on the Wittenberg Door. Without this doctrine, men do not need Jesus, they can be justified by some other means.


Hate to be the one to tell you this, but when it comes to saving faith, if you HAVE the wrong doctrine, i.e. Christ plus a works salvation, example: If I am good enough, If I do enough good things, etc, you are probably not trusting solely in the work of Christ, hence you are probably still perishing in your sins.

Jesus Himself said:
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

What truth do believers need to know to be saved?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

How is that hearing the word of God brings about faith?

What exactly do you think one needs to know to gain eternal life?

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Seriously Greg, no one is saying that all RC's are perishing. However, those whom are trusting in something other than Christ are sorely mistaken. Those whom come upon the doctrine of Justification by faith alone will abandon the RC error and seek out a true church.

Sola Christos
Christ alone = salvation
Rome + Christ = error
Christ + Rome = error
Mary + Christ = error
Christ + Mary = error
Christ + Anything = error

[Edited on 3-1-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Scott,

Do you think were you saved before you were a 5-point Calvinist? Or is nobody saved until after they've accepted both Christ and Calvin?

[Edited on 3-1-2004 by luvroftheWord]
 
Craig,
As described in the parable of the soils, those seeds who fall upon good soil will assuredly produce fruit.

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 [b:85ce4663ae] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it;[/b:85ce4663ae] which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Understanding counts for something.....

[Edited on 3-1-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
Scott,

I hear what you are saying. I would perhaps word it this way.

Same Christ. Different Gospel.

DO the Jews even today not still worship and try to obey the God of the Bible? The only true God? Sure they do. But they have a wrong gospel. A gospel of works without the fulfillment of Christ.

Likewise, many cults do uphold the same Christ, the same Second Person of the Trinity, however their error is that they change His work, thus changing the gospel.

Can RCC members be saved. Sure. Despite their church. All of us were lost when we were called to salvation by the Spirit of God.

But will an RCC member stay in the RCC if they are saved? I don't think so. If God saves them, I exapect He will remove them from a system that denies the gospel. They will not be able to stomach it as they grow in the knowledge of truth.

Do we haev to have all our theological ducks in a row? Nope. Praise God.

But we do have to repent of our sin and place our faith in Christ alone for salvation.

As for Paul, I appreciate your crusade to point out inconsistencies in the lives of those who for conscience sake in obedience to the Word of God have taken a stand against this movie. It does so much to prove your point in using your "freedom" to see the movie when you can then prove that those of us who will not are still vile sinners without setting foot in the theater. Why don't you spend your time a little more wisely and fight those that would change the gospel and ammend the Word of God instead of fighting those who would try to uphold the Word and the gospel as something that does not need to be (and indeed should not be) tampered with?

Phillip
 
[quote:365cbca505][i:365cbca505]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:365cbca505]
Scott,

I hear what you are saying. I would perhaps word it this way.

Same Christ. Different Gospel.

DO the Jews even today not still worship and try to obey the God of the Bible? The only true God? Sure they do. But they have a wrong gospel. A gospel of works without the fulfillment of Christ.

Likewise, many cults do uphold the same Christ, the same Second Person of the Trinity, however their error is that they change His work, thus changing the gospel.

Can RCC members be saved. Sure. Despite their church. All of us were lost when we were called to salvation by the Spirit of God.

But will an RCC member stay in the RCC if they are saved? I don't think so. If God saves them, I exapect He will remove them from a system that denies the gospel. They will not be able to stomach it as they grow in the knowledge of truth.

Do we haev to have all our theological ducks in a row? Nope. Praise God.

But we do have to repent of our sin and place our faith in Christ alone for salvation.

As for Paul, I appreciate your crusade to point out inconsistencies in the lives of those who for conscience sake in obedience to the Word of God have taken a stand against this movie. It does so much to prove your point in using your "freedom" to see the movie when you can then prove that those of us who will not are still vile sinners without setting foot in the theater. Why don't you spend your time a little more wisely and fight those that would change the gospel and ammend the Word of God instead of fighting those who would try to uphold the Word and the gospel as something that does not need to be (and indeed should not be) tampered with?

Phillip [/quote:365cbca505]

Phillip,
One of my points is that I believe Rome, as well as much of their staunch followers, do not have their Christology down. It is not drawn from the same plank as us. At first glance they may seem to agree, i.e. their adherance to the Apostles Creed, yet their other essential doctrines cause their Christology to flake.
 
Let's think this through, because it raises several interesting points.

Do we all have to hold the very same doctrinal views [i:da396723b0]about[/i:da396723b0] Jesus in order to be said to be to be speaking of the [i:da396723b0]same[/i:da396723b0] Jesus?

Is it a distortion of Who He is or what He has done? Is it Jesus, or is it the gospel?

Many think they are believing Him. He tells them to depart for He never knew them. But they don't seem surprised to meet Him. They thought they were serving Him but He reveals that He did not know them. The shocker is not meeting Jesus, it is finding out that the focus of their life regarding Him was wrong.

Were they following a false Christ, or believing a false gospel? There is, I think, a subtle difference.

Phillip
 
Scott, I understand the reformation. When I came out of the Catholic faith it was for very similar reasons. I understand that it is not my works that can save me. It is a tremendous burden lifted from upon my shoulders to rest in God's redemptive grace alone.

But I still believe I will see many Catholics in Heaven. I hope to see my parents as well as my brothers family and other relatives and friends who are Catholic.

THE REFORMERS SOUGHT TO REFORM THE CHURCH, NOT TO CONDEMN EVERYBODY WHO BELIEVED THAT WORKS PLAY A SMALL ROLE IN THEIR REDEMPTION.

[Edited on 3-1-2004 by Gregg]
 
[quote:b93d43f13f][i:b93d43f13f]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:b93d43f13f]


Phillip,
One of my points is that I believe Rome, as well as much of their staunch followers, do not have their Christology down. It is not drawn from the same plank as us. At first glance they may seem to agree, i.e. their adherance to the Apostles Creed, yet their other essential doctrines cause their Christology to flake. [/quote:b93d43f13f]
_________________________

Reply...

Scott, if what you say above is true, then wouldn't those of the Arminian denominations also err (as the Catholics) because they believe they must accept Christ (which is really a gospel of works also).
 
Greg,
All men must accept Christ.........

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
[quote:f5e2e5bc65][i:f5e2e5bc65]Originally posted by Gregg[/i:f5e2e5bc65]
Scott, I understand the reformation. When I came out of the Catholic faith it was for very similar reasons. I understand that it is not my works that can save me. It is a tremendous burden lifted from upon my shoulders to rest in God's redemptive grace alone.

But I still believe I will see many Catholics in Heaven. I hope to see my parents as well as my brothers family and other relatives and friends who are Catholic.

THE REFORMERS SOUGHT TO REFORM THE CHURCH, NOT TO CONDEMN EVERYBODY WHO BELIEVED THAT WORKS PLAY A SMALL ROLE IN THEIR REDEMPTION.

[Edited on 3-1-2004 by Gregg] [/quote:f5e2e5bc65]

I disagree. You see, when Luther stood at Worms, the jist of what he was proclaiming was in fact that Rome was perishing.

~For the record, everyone here knows me well enough so that I do not need to give my personal confession of faith. I know salvation is of God. I know no man knows anothers heart. I know that there are RC's that are saved and on their way out of the RCC. I know that there are JW's that are saved, Mormons etc. However, they are then rejecting their past errors and moving forward toward truth.

[Edited on 3-1-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
[i:ebf51cc89f]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:ebf51cc89f]


I disagree. You see, when Luther stood at Worms, the jist of what he was proclaiming was in fact that Rome was perishing.
________________________

Reply...

But was Luthers statement just pointing at the justification issue or was it also pointing out the error of the churches selling of indulgances thinking that people could buy their enterence to Heaven?
 
Indulgences assuredly were part of it as they were a work.

Luthers complaint was primarily that, Justification by faith alone vs works. Luther read Romans and the book ruined him.

[Edited on 3-1-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
[quote:9a2df0715e][i:9a2df0715e]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:9a2df0715e]
Greg,
All men must accept Christ.........

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [/quote:9a2df0715e]

Reply...

This is true, but you really dodged the main point of what I was asking so I'll rephrase it.

Do the Arminians also err (as in a gospel of works) because they believe that they can accept Christ at any time such as by reciting the sinners prayer (which really is a gospel of works also) especially if they are responding within their own power.

Wouldn't this then be salvation by grace plus works?
 
Greg,
I did not dodge your question intentionally. You trying to pigeon-hole me? I was raised RC. Schooled parochially!
I have the bruises to prove it.
Arminianism is heresy. I have never met an Arminian. Churches today are not true Arminians. The sinners prayer does not save. Anyone trusting in anything other than Christ is barking up the wrong tree.

[Edited on 3-1-2004 by Scott Bushey]
 
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