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It's a lawful circumstance, or prescribed element or neither and thus unlawful to use in public worship. There is not a fourth option. So why do congregations that make the argument it assists the singing, allow offertories? For the historic Presbyterian position against any use, see Girardeau and Dabney on this topic:Does the RPW forbid doing certain things "in worship" or "as worship"?
For example: Would it be forbidden to have a piece of instrumental music played during a worship service if it were clearly understood that it was not being done as worship?
Circumstance basically means "surrounding conditions." They don't necessarily have to be tied to an element of worship.Would 1.6 have us regulate a circumstance no more than being generally agreeable to the scriptures? Or does 1.6 carry behind it an assumption that circumstances are always tied to an element?
Does the RPW forbid doing certain things "in worship" or "as worship"?
For example: Would it be forbidden to have a piece of instrumental music played during a worship service if it were clearly understood that it was not being done as worship?
Before the call to worship, the worship service has not begun, but since instruments are not commanded in worship and therefore forbidden, it would be confusing to play a piano just to let people know that you are about to begin the worship service. There are other ways to do this, for example, in our congregation our pastor makes a simple announcement to make our way to our seats and to quiet our hearts as we prepare for worship.While I'm against instrumental pieces during the service, like an offertory, I do see a use for having the piano played for five minutes or so before the service. That, like ringing the bell in the steeple, tells people to stop yakking and get in position so there's no scurrying around when the call to worship is issued.
I only wish it worked on more of the congregation.
How would you determine that? I think it would be clearly unwise. But if your reason to forbid is because it is not prescribed (even if it isn't considered an element of worship) then how does that logical apply to other things - traditions such as standing for the reading of Scripture or playing an instrumental piece?Would it be forbidden to slay a lamb during a worship service if it were clearly understood that it was not being done as worship?
How would you determine that? I think it would be clearly unwise. But if your reason to forbid is because it is not prescribed (even if it isn't considered an element of worship) then how does that logical apply to other things - traditions such as standing for the reading of Scripture or playing an instrumental piece?
If the deciding factor is christian prudence, then lamb slaying would be obvious. What about the harder stuff?
So what is the deciding factor?The lamb slaying comment was merely to point out that an assumed understanding that “this is not worship” doesn’t work. I think in theory churches like the OPC wouldn’t argue that pianos are necessary, just expedient (even on that point it’s a suspect argument). However, they functionally become an element of worship such that I remember being at an afternoon service where our elders were frantically trying to find someone to play piano so we could sing. There are quite a number of tunes people sing quite well, and probably even better, without a piano.
Playing an instrumental piece has no place in public worship. We are only to do those things commanded or shown by example. Circumstances are the things without which the elements cannot take place, such as posture. A posture for praying is necessary as we don’t become disembodied the moment we start to pray, therefore a posture is to be adopted. Even there we have biblical examples: kneeling, standing, prostrate, etc. There is room for certain circumstantial latitude on how the elements are carried out. I don’t expect Africans to sing the Psalms to exclusively Scottish tunes.
So what is the deciding factor?
Instrumental music is forbidden because it is not a circumstance of worship at all? It is not a circumstance.
Instrumental music is forbidden because it is not a wise circumstance in any context? It is never wise.
Instrumental music *may be* forbidden because it is not a wise circumstance some contexts? It is up to Christian prudence.
How would you determine that? I think it would be clearly unwise. But if your reason to forbid is because it is not prescribed (even if it isn't considered an element of worship) then how does that logical apply to other things - traditions such as standing for the reading of Scripture or playing an instrumental piece?
If the deciding factor is christian prudence, then lamb slaying would be obvious. What about the harder stuff?
I never considered that the music played during the Supper was anything but necessary and proper until I attended a service where the sacrament was administered in silence. The difference was actually startling to me. I wish this was the rule and custom in our churches.
Incidental or what I call "mood music" during offerings or the Lord's Supper are not commanded. Under the RPW they would not be part of the service because they introduce something uncommanded.
I have difficulty understanding this phrase. I don't get the distinction.to not only have instruments during worship, but also for worship.
Sorry if my wording was unclear. I was just trying to say that I believe it is Biblical too use instruments during a worship service, and as a means of worship.I have difficulty understanding this phrase. I don't get the distinction.
I don't want to be flippant, but the only distinction I can see is if the congregation brought musical instruments to a gathering for worship and set them down. Is that what you mean by "during worship" as opposed to "for worship?"
As for offering balance, how does your opinion relate to the discussion on the regulative principle of worship?
Perhaps it is good just to lay the RPW out simply. Chapter 21 of the WCF (Chapter 22 of the LBCF is almost identical) lays out two basic things:
The General Rule:
"But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture."
And Specifics:
"Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,...."
"The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,...;
sound preaching(s) and conscionable hearing of the Word...;
singing of psalms with grace in the heart; [LBCF has "hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs"]
the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ.
In addition, special situations call for special gatherings.
Instruments are indeed mentioned in Scripture, but we note that all mention of them pertain to tabernacle or temple worship. Jesus destroyed the temple and raised it up on the third day. In other words, all that pertained to temple worship has been fulfilled and abolished in Christ. That is the rationale for the RPW. What was commanded by our Lord and his apostles after his resurrection is what we believe we should do.
If this is according to the regulative principle, and instruments are justified as prescribed in the psalms, then they must be used and are not optional in the worship service, and they must be used by everyone in public worship, not a select few. I've never seen (rarely any way) an argument that matches the actual practice of using musical instruments in public worship that is consistent with the regulative principle as articulated in puritanism and presbyterianism in the Westminster Standards.Most reformed churches today use instruments and still uphold the regulative principle. I would also add that from my experience all of these churches are desiring to obey God, and are not to be viewed as those who intentionally want to disobey God for the sake of growing megachurches or pleasing the flesh. The difference lies in the hermeneutical approach as you know, so when I see the Psalms telling me to use instruments and play skillfully, that is a command that I obey.
Most reformed churches today use instruments and still uphold the regulative principle. I would also add that from my experience all of these churches are desiring to obey God, and are not to be viewed as those who intentionally want to disobey God for the sake of growing megachurches or pleasing the flesh. Just because one side doesn't agree with something doesn't mean the other side doesn't have good rationale for doing so. The difference lies in the hermeneutical approach as you know, so when I see the Psalms telling me to use instruments and play skillfully, that is a command that I obey.
That's a good point! Off the bat, my thought would be that there are a lot of commands in Scripture that are not singled out for individuals, but are for the community of faith. The same principle would apply for spiritual gifts. Not everyone has the same gifting.If this is according to the regulative principle, and instruments are justified as prescribed in the psalms, then they must be used and are not optional in the worship service, and they must be used by everyone in public worship, not a select few. I've never seen (rarely any way) an argument that matches the actual practice of using musical instruments in public worship that is consistent with the regulative principle as articulated in puritanism and presbyterianism in the Westminster Standards.
One could argue that for singing just as well.That's a good point! Off the bat, my thought would be that there are a lot of commands in Scripture that are not singled out for individuals, but are for the community of faith. The same principle would apply for spiritual gifts. Not everyone has the same gifting.
The piano is also useful to accompany the singing during worship: I regard it a circumstance to help us all sing together. But an instrumental number by itself during the worship has no place; it is neither an element nor is it in aid of one.Before the call to worship, the worship service has not begun, but since instruments are not commanded in worship and therefore forbidden, it would be confusing to play a piano just to let people know that you are about to begin the worship service. There are other ways to do this, for example, in our congregation our pastor makes a simple announcement to make our way to our seats and to quiet our hearts as we prepare for worship.
Where are instruments commanded to be used in worship in Scripture?The piano is also useful to accompany the singing during worship: I regard it a circumstance to help us all sing together. But an instrumental number by itself during the worship has no place; it is neither an element nor is it in aid of one.
We all know where this goes; why begin? I have said they are a circumstance, to aid in singing together, just as a light is an aid to reading the Scripture, or a table an aid to laying out the elements of the Supper. Your question would be relevant only if I was advocating for instruments as elements, which I am not.Where are instruments commanded to be used in worship in Scripture?
Ryan&Amber2013; I am curious, could you please provide a few Biblical texts that support your view of "I'm convinced it is completely okay and commanded Biblically to not only have instruments during worship but also for worship" (not just one text, because we cannot make theology out of one bible verse!) Thank you!Just to offer some balance, I'm convinced it is completely okay and commanded Biblically to not only have instruments during worship, but also for worship. It's all a matter of Biblical interpretation. But if you don't have instruments as part of worship, I find it silly to have them at all in the church. That's like wanting something you know you shouldn't have, and the only reason you don't have it is because the rules say no.
You ask a valid and fair question. I would just refine it and say that we absolutely can—indeed, we must—“make theology” from one verse. If Scripture teaches something, even if only in one place, then it has the same weight of truth as if it taught it in a thousand.Ryan&Amber2013; I am curious, could you please provide a few Biblical texts that support your view of "I'm convinced it is completely okay and commanded Biblically to not only have instruments during worship but also for worship" (not just one text, because we cannot make theology out of one bible verse!) Thank you!
Taylor: How did you reach that conclusion? could you please provide the one verse that supports your view? Ref. on my view 1 Cor. 2:13, Eph 5:19, Col 3:16 etc.You ask a valid and fair question. I would just refine it and say that we absolutely can—indeed, we must—“make theology” from one verse. If Scripture teaches something, even if only in one place, then it has the same weight of truth as if it taught it in a thousand.
I don’t think you’re understanding me. I’m not pushing back against your position on musical instruments. I’m just refining what you said about hermeneutics, saying we can’t make theological statements from only one verse, which is not true, given that Scripture is the infallible and inerrant Word of God.Taylor: How did you reach that conclusion? could you please provide the one verse that supports your view? Ref. on my view 1 Cor. 2:13, Eph 5:19, Col 3:16 etc.
Hello friend. I know it's pointless for me to do this, as no one is going to be changed, but this is from CARM:Ryan&Amber2013; I am curious, could you please provide a few Biblical texts that support your view of "I'm convinced it is completely okay and commanded Biblically to not only have instruments during worship but also for worship" (not just one text, because we cannot make theology out of one bible verse!) Thank you!