Saints Sit on Thrones

[Turtle]

It is very rare that I hear preachers preach on verses that refer to the saints sitting on thrones or reigning.

Question: Do the following verses refer to the saints, sitting on thrones after Christ’s bodily return, after they have endured?” What other verses should be referred to?

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? (1 Cor 6:2)

if we endure, we shall also reign with him (2 Tim 2:12)

When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory, and before him shall be gathered all nations (Mat 25:31)

ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt 19:28)

he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Rev 2:26)

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:28-30)

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev 3:21)

He shall speak great words against the most High, and shall war out the saints of the most High… but the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. (Dan 7:25)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: (Rev 20:4)

 

[Peairtach]

Some of these verses refer to reigning with Christ in this present world, some to the defeat of Christ's enemies in history and the ascendancy of Christianity, some to reigning with Christ in Heaven, and some to the New Heavens and New Earth.

I don't see a premillennium in the Bible for many basic reasons e.g. Jesus would be removed from His present state of glorification and exaltation to live in Jerusalem in an Earth that wouldn't be appropriate to our glorified and exalted Saviour.

Christ can't enter into a state of humiliation or partial humiliation again, and that seems to be what the premils posit.

 

[Turtle]

Endurance?

Some of these verses refer to reigning with Christ in this present world, some to the defeat of Christ's enemies in history and the ascendancy of Christianity, some to reigning with Christ in Heaven, and some to the New Heavens and New Earth.

I don't see a premillennium in the Bible for many basic reasons e.g. Jesus would be removed from His present state of glorification and exaltation to live in Jerusalem in an Earth that wouldn't be appropriate to our glorified and exalted Saviour.

Christ can't enter into a state of humiliation or partial humiliation again, and that seems to be what the premils posit.

Richard, Thanks for posting.

Also congratulations are in order for your speed at passing a discussion of the verses I posted, which you did by means of your rejoinder to a millennial position that was not in my post… though you are unable to see a premillennium in the Bible you apparently saw it somewhere in my post <grin> and were compelled to counter a millennial position I didn't make nor have any care to claim <grin>.

Seriously, what do the verses say about the saints reigning, ruling, judging, enduring, sitting on thrones? You indicate some of the verses refer to reigning with Christ before His return and I'ld be interested in which ones. It appears to me that the verses on reigning have a lot to do with encouragement to endure our present circumstances.

It seems very odd to think of the saints ruling and reigning presently, after all the disciple is not above his master, and suffering (rather than reigning) seems more obviously the normal circumstance of the saints. Some were stoned, sawn in two, tortured but accepted no deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection, others were destitute, tormented. Others joyfully accepted the spoiling of their goods knowing that in heaven they had a better and enduring substance. In their suffering they had need of patience that they not cast away their confidence which has great recompense of reward--"after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, He that shall come will come, and will not tarry." Lest we be wearied and faint, we are reminded to look unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith who endured and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. The saints are repeatedly exhorted to endure hardship, affliction, suffering, and chastening that they might afterward receive the promised inheritance. We presently have the earnest of our inheritance "until the redemption of the purchased possession."

Timothy wrote to fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, professing a good profession (remembering Christ Jesus who professed before Pontius Pilate), and said to keep the commandment without spot until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in His times shall shew who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.

It appears to me that many verses on the saints reigning, ruling, judging, etc are written in the context of the saints needing encouragement to overcome and endure until Christ's return.

Just today I read a quote that said, "If the preacher avoids preaching about sin then he can't preach about a Christ who saves from sin." Sin isn't such a popular topic in preaching and I suppose the same could be said about saints suffering, with similar consequence on common sermons of today.


What do you think of the verses (apart form millennial positions <grin>) as related to the question of the saints endurance and faithfulness in the context?

Bryan

 

[Peairtach]

It seems very odd to think of the saints ruling and reigning presently, after all the disciple is not above his master, and suffering (rather than reigning) seems more obviously the normal circumstance of the saints.

You can be reigning spiritually with Christ in Heaven even while at the same time being burnt at the stake for your faith.

You can also be ruling and reigning with Christ while having quite a pleasant life and not suffering very much, although this world - even at the best of times - always has a degree of suffering associated with it.

E.g.

For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:17, ESV)

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (Ephesians 2:4-6, ESV)

John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Rev 1:4-6)

I'll have a look at the verses you cite and get back on your other points later.

 

[Peairtach]

Turtle

Also congratulations are in order for your speed at passing a discussion of the verses I posted, which you did by means of your rejoinder to a millennial position that was not in my post… though you are unable to see a premillennium in the Bible you apparently saw it somewhere in my post <grin> and were compelled to counter a millennial position I didn't make nor have any care to claim <grin>.

Yes. Sorry for that Bryan. I think I looked at and answered your original post quickly and assumed you were premil, and tried to answer your Q from that perspective.

Even if you are historical premil I'm sure you're welcome on the PB.

All true Christians are prophets, priests and kings in their earthly sojourn of suffering - and some suffer more than others. Our Lord Jesus was a prophet, priest and king during His earthly sojourn.

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? (1 Cor 6:2)

The saints already judge the world e.g. whenever God's Word is spoken by a saint - who is in this sense a prophet - and that Word is rejected, the sinner/sinners who reject it are and will be judged by that Word.

E.g.

But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? (II Cor 2:14-16,ESV)

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! (I Cor 6:1-3,ESV)

The context appears to suggest judgment by the saints in Heaven and at the Last Day.

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.(II Tim 2:10-13)

In the context "we shall reign with Him" appears to be talking particularly of the Heavenly Eschatalogical Kingdom - i.e. Heaven and then the New Heavens and New Earth - but it is true that we have already died with Christ, we already live with Christ, we already suffer with Christ and already reign with Christ here in our lives on Earth.

When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory, and before him shall be gathered all nations (Mat 25:31)

ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt 19:28)

The above two passages appear to refer to the Last judgment at the Last Day and the New Heavens and New Earth.

he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Rev 2:26)

This passage appears to refer to saints in Heaven during the Interadventual Age.

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:28-30)

This appears largely to refer to the Last judgment and the New Heavens and New Earth, although we already eat and drink at Christ's Table in His Kingdom, in a particular manner at the Lord's Supper or Lord's Table.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev 3:21)

This refers to saints reigning with Christ in Heaven during the Interadventual Age, and also beyond into the New Heavens and New Earth.

He shall speak great words against the most High, and shall war out the saints of the most High… but the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. (Dan 7:25)

The passage in Daniel 7 appears to refer to Christ's ascension - not His Second Advent, His receiving of all power in Heaven and on Earth, and His judgment on the Roman Empire and all beastly persecutory power in history.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: (Rev 20:4)

The Q is, are the thrones in Heaven or on Earth also, and is the judgment given to them in Heaven only or on Earth also. Revelation 20 alone isn't definitive for answering the Q of whether amil or postmil because the Book of Revelation is only the capstone of all that has gone before and must be interpreted in that light.

Bryan

What do you think of the verses (apart form millennial positions <grin>) as related to the question of the saints endurance and faithfulness in the context?

Whether we're undergoing physical persecution by the state or not, there is always suffering and trouble in this world, and there will be to the end of time.

It will help us to endure - according to many of these passages - to remember that we will one day reign with Christ in Heaven and then in the New Heavens and New Earth, and it will also help us to endure to remember that we are also already reigning with Him:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, (Eph 1:3)

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, (Eph 2:20)

and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (Eph 2:6)